Exodus Revealed, the Sequel

Here’s the second of my two-part review of Exodus Revealed, which airs occasionally on the National Geographic Channel.

I’ll summarize this part of the Exodus story, for those of you who weren’t paying attention in Sunday school. That would probably include me. Here’s how I remember it:

The Israelites run away but hit a roadblock when they come to the Red Sea. Everybody says that they believe in fairies, and they clap their hands. Moses clicks the heels of his ruby slippers, and the ocean parts. Then they escape across the ocean floor, no doubt grabbing some very surprised and disoriented fish as they go.

Pharaoh says “I believe in fairies, too!”, everybody claps their hands, and he sends his army across the ocean floor in pursuit. Unfortunately, there is only one pair of ruby slippers, which the Israelites currently possess. By rights, those slippers belong to Pharaoh. They originally belonged to Pharaoh’s brother, the ruler of the Upper Nile. But then the Israelites dropped a house on Upper Nile Pharaoh and stole the slippers.

Anyway, since Pharaoh didn’t have the slippers, the magic didn’t work for him. When his entire army was on the ocean floor, the water crashed back in on them and everybody melted.

Red Sea

The documentary presented several people, each with their own explanations for the parting of the Red Sea.

Professor Colin J. Humphreys, he of the flatulent ficus (see prior installment), attributes the incident to the phenomenon of wind setdown. Wind setdown occurs when a strong, steady wind blows water aside. This could expose a ridge of land.

Geoarchaeologist Floyd McCoy, of the University of Hawaii, has a different hypothesis. He suggests that a tsunami could have created a land passage across a lagoon. As you’ll recall from the Asian tsunami of 2004, the water rushes out before the giant wave hits. McCoy admits, however, that the timing of such a rare event makes this explanation a longshot.

Stephen J. O’Meara, Vulcanologist with Volcano Watch International, suggests that there could have been a massive land bridge formed by lava. An underwater eruption created a temporary and unstable lava bridge. This could have held out long enough for the Israelites, but given way once the Egyptians followed.

Nobody asked me, but I think that the Israelites somehow got transported to the Bay of Fundy, which they crossed at low tide. Pharaoh’s people tried to cross when the tide was coming back in and got covered. OK, this one is less likely than the tsunami.

Reed Sea

Not everybody is foolish enough to take the Bible literally. Professor James K. Hoffmeier, Archaeologist at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, says that the original Hebrew text refers to a “sea of reeds”. The Greeks mistranslated that into “Red Sea”, and we’ve been stuck with that bit of shoddy workmanship for over 2000 years. What’s the world coming to? Translators used to take pride in their work! But for the last 2000 years, nobody cares!

The Nile Delta looked very different 3000 years ago than it does today, so finding a “Reed Sea” is difficult. Professor Stephen O. Mosher, Geologist at Wheaton College, is using declassified spy satellite photos in the hunt. These photos are from the Cold War 1960s, and they show the Nile Delta before all of the massive over-development that exists there today. In these photos, the locations of ancient bodies of water show up as dark splotches in the desert. One of those splotches could be the Reed Sea. Hoffmeier and Mosher have identified an ancient body of water known as Lake Ballah that they think is a likely candidate.

It Must be True. I Read It in the Bible!

Robert Cornuke, Biblical Investigator for Bible Archaeology Search and Exploration, is convinced that the Bible is accurate.

You need a Flash plug-in to hear this!

Cornuke holds a PhD from the unaccredited Louisiana Baptist University.

The National Geographic documentary has hurt its credibility both by including somebody whose methods are not recognized as valid by the scientific community, and by not disclosing that Cornuke’s PhD is not recognized as valid by an official accrediting body.

Cornuke has found an underwater land bridge near the mouth of the Gulf of Aqaba in the Red Sea. He found some artifacts at the site. He then makes a leap of logic and claims that they must have belonged to the Israelites and the Egyptian army. That’s scholarship for you!

Conclusion

Professor Eric Cline, Archaeologist at The George Washington University, says:

We do not have a single shred of evidence to date. There is nothing archaeologically to attest to anything from the Biblical story. No plagues, no parting of the Red Sea, no manna from heaven, no wandering for 40 years.

Dr. Kathlyn M. Cooney, Egyptologist at Stanford University, had this to say:

The most likely reason that we’re not finding any evidence for the Exodus in Egypt is that it didn’t happen the way the Bible said it did, or that it didn’t happen at all.

Ouch. Facts. What a way to mess up a perfectly good delusion!

Postscript

“Doctor” Robert Cornuke, the self-described “Biblical Investigator for Bible Archaeology Search and Exploration (with a compass in the stock and this thing which tells time)” is an example of why real science works. In real science, you make observations, form a hypothesis, make more observations to see if the hypothesis holds, and then publish your results in a peer-reviewed journal. Other scientists will then try to reproduce your results. As often as not, they will either come up with different results (because of a flaw in your experimental design or because you didn’t consider something) or they will have a different interpretation of the data and propose a different hypothesis. Over time and further experimentation, data gathering, and discussion, a scientific consensus emerges.

49 Responses to “Exodus Revealed, the Sequel”

  1. Gary Navarre Says:

    This site is dishonest. What are you so afrain of? As an archaeologist by trade, I can attest that the investigation documented in “Exodous Revealed” was coducted according to strict professional scientific standards. The video footage of unnaturaly shaped corral formations do resemble wreckage in many cases, and the gold laminated 4-spoke wheel (and therefore without any coral growth) is absolute – an 18th dynasty chariot wheel. Is seeing not beliving? Is not further investigation warranted? No, its your own website and flippant, deragatory comments that seem unscientific. And your quoted experts seem well out of date.

  2. Ron Britton Says:

    Gary:

    I’m not afraid of anything. I’m merely reporting on what I saw. If you have better evidence, let’s hear it.

    So how are you able to attest to the quality of work done by “Dr.” Cornuke? Did you work with him on this project? Maybe you’re affiliated with his Bible Archaeology Explorers club? Maybe you’ve read something he published in a peer-reviewed journal? It would take more knowledge of the expedition than was presented on television to be able to determine that the work is credible.

    I’m maintaining that the work is not credible, because Cornuke received his Ph.D. from Louisiana Baptist University, an unaccredited far-right religious school. This school was labeled a diploma mill in Steve Levicoff’s 1993 book Name It and Frame It?. This is also the school that graduated Rick Scarborough, Bill Gothard, Chuck Missler (of evolving peanut butter fame), and other fundie embarrassments. Based on that pedigree, I have strong suspicions that Cornuke’s skills and methods are sub-standard.

    My web site is entitled to be flippant and unscientific, because this isn’t a scientific journal. As far as my quoted experts are concerned, they aren’t mine. I’m just reporting on what they showed in the documentary. If you don’t like what they say, take it up with them. However, I think it is your “expert”, Robert Cornuke, who is out of date. Somebody should have told him that the Bible was discredited years ago.

  3. Jamma Says:

    The Bible has NOT been discredited – the only people who think that are the uninformed and those who have presuppositions that it SHOULD be discredited. You should check MANY opposing resources…Many scientists disagree. So far every time someone attempts to discredit the Bible, Archeology or Astronomy, Astrophysics, Biology, and/or Cosmology (or a combination of one or more) finds some new data that indicates that the bible is indeed true – on the things that is explains. Who really knows…but of course with the “scientific meathod” one must start with a hypothesis – a presupposition, if you will, and prove or disprove. And so we all argue and THINK we know something. But look for ALL the evidence – not just the experts who support your own claims. What I’m trying to say, is – YOU DON’T KNOW.

  4. Ron Britton Says:

    Jamma:

    Really? The Bible hasn’t been discredited? The only people who think that are the uninformed and those who have presuppositions that it HASN’T be discredited. You should check ANY opposing resources.

    • The Bible says the Earth is flat.
    • The Bible says that the universe was created in six days just a few thousand years ago.
    • The Bible says that there was a worldwide flood.
    • The Bible says that pi = 3.
    • The Bible says that stars are tiny and are stuck in the sky on a “firmament”.

    I could go on and on, but you get the point (I hope!). That book is riddled with “facts” that were discredited long ago. Add in the fact that it was cobbled together by early scribes from earlier myths from other cultures, and you pretty much have to throw the whole thing in the toilet.

  5. Dirk Says:

    I read you article, and your comments at the end, I am interested in you proving where in the bible does it say that the earth is flat? Where does it say the pi=3.

    Also what proof that the earth was not created in 6 days a few thousand years ago? Were you or your “authorities” there?” How can you and your authorities with you limited fallible minds comprehend how the stars were put in place? What proof that the Flood was not worldwide, were you there?

    You look at things from a view that you and fallible imperfect humans know best. You need to provide eyewitness account of the discredited accounts. You facts you detail are by men that have hated this book because it points out that they are what it says they are.

    I find it sad that they cannot even see that we “fit” the description in the Bible and constantly want to shake our fist at God and ply like we know better.

    I do not consider myself to be an intellectual by any stretch of the imagination, and I certainly do not know it all or really care to.

    But I have read some and believe that all of the accounts of the #1 read book in the world is true and that man’s attempt to disprove it are all futile and in vain.

    Many have tried in the past, and they went to meet their maker still shaking their fist.

    Have you read this book more than once, more than five times, how many? Have you compared it to the finds in the Middle East and Israel that Prove this to be true?

    Just Curious.

    So, if and when you read the Bible, and investigated all the eye witness evidence that is out there maybe you will come at this from the correct angle.

    May I wish you all the best!

  6. Mudflappus Says:

    Dirk, there are no eye witness accounts to anything that is discussed in Exodus. Where are the Egyptian historical records of these events? Something this big surley would have been noticed by other cultures and peoples living in the surrounding areas and yet there is no record there either. So either the “Correct angle” merely refers to your own perspective or you are simply just another cog in the Christian gristmill that needs jusification for your own beliefs so badly, that you’ll believe anything you read. That is as long as it has a cross on the cover.

    I’m afraid that I will never see it from your perspective so you might as well threaten me with Hell fire followed shortly by how you wouldn’t want to be me on judgement day. Go ahead. I’m quite used to it.

  7. Dirk Says:

    No, I won’t give you the emotional response. Well, let’s look at why there are no records in Egyptian history. First, Egypt hated sheepherders that is why they were in Goshen, well away from them. The Hyksos that invaded Egypt somewhere around 18th or 17th century BC were Semitic people, so the Egyptians had a long hate for Semitic people long after they threw out the Hyksos. That would account for no records of Israel since they hated Semitic people and that hate is still with us today. I can’t remember if there was anything about Joseph being the one that saved Egypt from starvation, but probably not, I will find out.

    But you are correct, I read an account an did not find any reference to their troubles or Israel leaving Egypt, on this I will find out also. I know some people, and yes they are believers, but they are scholars in this area. They will let me know or point me in the correct direction.

    As for a possible reason for no record about the Exodus is that none of the people that were chasing the Israelites ever came back, then their whole country was devastated. Would you as a powerful nation want that in your historical records. Probably not! I know I wouldn’t, I would want to forget it and move on as fast as humanly possible, especially if there were other enemies that could take advantage of the situation.

    There is one letter from a governor of Gath that was written to the Pharaoh around 1400 about the invading Hapiru and requested help from Egypt. It was ignored by the Pharaoh at the time. I believe these were on an Amarna Tablet. There also was another reference to the invasion by a Milkilu the Prince of Gezer requesting aid from Egypt.

    I will keep investigating to find more.

    However I still want to know where in the Bible it say about the other things you mentioned.

    Thanks, and have a great day!

  8. Ron Britton Says:

    Dirk:

    The Bible says that pi = 3 in 1 Kings 7:23, which is discussed a little further here. I have an article about the Bible claiming the Earth is flat here (That article discusses a longer, more in-depth article elsewhere you can read if you aren’t convinced.).

    I’ll respond to some of your other points tomorrow, when I have more time.

  9. Dirk Says:

    Not to quibble about it but if you really want to get that technical, then yes they rounded the number, no big deal!

    As for flat earth, I am not an English major or a writer so I don’t know what type of literature writing Moses used. I told you that I am not scholar or claim to be any thing like that.

    I read it in context to what we know now and I know God knew what he was doing and still does regardless what we as puny humans think.

    Come to think of it, do Darwinists and belivers in evolution nit pick their numbers?
    They probably should!

  10. Bunkie Says:

    Dirk:

    I doubt that you would want a house built where they “rounded the number” because it was, well, “no big deal”. There would be gaps, and corners would not be square. Or, say you bake cookies and use a tablespoon of salt instead of a teaspoon because it’s no big deal — after all, it’s close — but the cookies would taste really awful (I had a daughter who tried that)! Hey, if that is OK with you, then go for it! Personally, I prefer to be “that technical”.

    AND, BTW, scientists (including “evolutionists”) DO nitpick their numbers, to the scientifically significant level.

  11. Dirk Says:

    In this instance, it is no big deal because we are talking about a bath that the priests use to use, it is not food or a house.

    The more I get into this the more I see that you must have an axe to grind.

    Where did the distaste for the Bible come from?

    Why do you spend your life trying to disprove it when better men than yourself have trued for thousands of years?

    I cannot comprehend your absolute hate for it or those who believe in it.

    This is not your going to burn in hell talk, this is what made you into what your are today as I know there are those out there but I have never conversed with on, I guess i just curious and if you don’t wnat to tell me that’s fine, I’ll just move on and still study what you have brought up.

    All the best to you!

  12. Ron Britton Says:

    Dirk:

    You claim that the Bible rounded pi. So that’s a passage you aren’t taking literally. How do you know what to believe, then? Do you read every passage and if you like it, then you believe it, and if you don’t like it, you invent some excuse?

    You claim that the Universe was created in six 24-hour days. What if that was rounded? Maybe they were 25-hour days. Or 25,000,000-year days? How can you be so sure? Again, you are picking and choosing what to believe.

    You ask:

    How can you and your authorities with you limited fallible minds comprehend how the stars were put in place?

    So how can YOU with YOUR limited and fallible mind know which parts of the Bible to believe literally?

    It sounds like you agree that Earth is spherical. As I pointed out in that article I directed you to, the Bible is definitely talking about a flat Earth. You weasel out of this by saying you are not a scholar. You don’t have to be one. If a scholar writes an article clearly explaining how the description provided in the Bible is only consistent with a flat Earth, then you’re stuck. You have to believe the new information or come up with a better excuse. You can’t call this one a rounding error.

    It also sounds like you are rejecting all of modern astronomy and cosmology. You really think that the stars are tiny and are glued onto a canopy in the sky?

    If you reject any of these claims made in Genesis, then it calls the entire book into question. I’m not saying that these falsehoods discredit everything else, but they gravely weaken all of the other claims.

    You also say:

    if and when you read the Bible, and investigated all the eye witness evidence that is out there maybe you will come at this from the correct angle.

    So that means you are relying on evidence outside the Bible to validate the claims within it. That’s fine. But only the more trivial aspects of the Bible have been corroborated with outside evidence. There is no evidence for the creation story, the flood, or any of the other big events.

    If you are trying to claim that you believe the Bible because it has evidence behind it, you are wrong. I don’t know if you’re lying to me or to yourself, but claiming there is evidence for the big stories is a total falsehood.

    You need to provide eyewitness account of the discredited accounts.

    The burden of proof is upon the person making the claim. It is not up to scientists to disprove the Bible. It is up to theists to prove it. (I’m only talking about the testable claims, such as the age of the Earth. I’m not asking you to prove whether God exists.) Scientists claim the Earth is 4.6 billion years old, because they have mountains of evidence. They made a claim and they backed it up.

    You said:

    You facts you detail are by men that have hated this book because it points out that they are what it says they are.

    and

    I certainly do not know it all or really care to.

    Interestingly, one thing you DO claim to know is the motivation of every scientist who has studied geology, cosmology, biology, and every other science that contradicts the wild claims of the Bible. They are all Bible haters? Heck, I’d even concede your point if most of them were Bible haters. The reality is that very few disdain the Bible. Many scientists are religious themselves. The vast majority of the rest don’t hold too much of an opinion on the book either way. Very very few “[hate] this book because it points out that they are what it says they are”, or even for any other reason.

    I think you should leave the wild claim-making to the Bible. You’re even less good at it.

  13. Dirk Says:

    Well, I guess you put me in my place! Now, we we both meet our Maker, we’ll see what you think then. I am going on faith, which gives me lots of peace about where I am going. You on the other hand may have made a confession at one time or another that I don’t know, but if what I believe about the Bible to be true as there are other instances of rounding and numbers that don’t add up because they aren’t important to the overall message and that is, you need to make a choice, choose the One who can give you life or don’t it is up to you. If you reject the Lord of Lords and King of Kings then you have made a choice to follow the father of this world and his fate is not a pretty one, that I would want on anyone. But if you do, and you leave this world in that state you will regret and there is no turning back.

    I will remember to ask Jesus to soften your hard heart and bring you to him to get you out of the darkness and into the light of pure salvation. May God be merciful to you and open the eyes of your heart to see the real truth.

    With this I will no longer be sending emails back and forth and I will get on with trying to reach another, it has been interesting to say the least!

    Again I wish you the best!

  14. Ron Britton Says:

    And with that, Dirk runs away. Yes, Dirk, you are running away. You didn’t answer my questions. Do the answers hurt? Sure, maybe pi was rounded, but what about the flat Earth? What about the stars stuck to a firmament? These are questions I asked you, and you choose to run away instead. How is a completely false description of cosmology OK in your mind, yet you refuse to admit that the six-day creation story is also false?

    How about the motivations you falsely ascribe to non-Christians, that they all hate God and the Bible? Sure is a comforting fiction, isn’t it? Instead of finding out the real reasons people might say your book is false, you invent yet another story to comfort yourself.

    You can run, but you can’t hide from yourself. You have shown that you lack the ability to answer these questions. You know deep inside that the answers are troubling. You’ll put up a brave face, you may even write a quick response here, but you can’t fool yourself forever.

  15. Ben Bartlett Says:

    You are definitely being unfair with your criticism. In particular, referring to Chuck Mistler as the ‘evolving peanut butter’ person. I happen to know the context of what he said about peanut butter (as well as everything else in the canning industry). He was using that example to illustrate the concept of life springing from nonlife. If you still believe in ‘spontaneous generation’ (which was discredited more than a century ago), I submit that you are the one who is out of date. Be careful, opening your can of sardines, or any other canned food. Something might jump out and bite you! Billions of times, every year, people open cans and jars of food, without discovering life inside. And they never will. Only God is capable of producing life. Even if you had all of the necessary ingredients (which would include ONLY left handed protein molecules), you still would be a long way from producing life. The Miller-Urie experiment DID NOT produce the building blocks of like, since only a racemic mixture (equal right and left handed molecules) was produced. Any biologist, worth his salt, would know that the living creatures are constructed of left handed molecules; the presence of even one right handed molecule is enough to interrupt the process.
    Our scientific community is not even capable of restoring life to an entity that was previously alive, such as a drowning victim. All of the necessary ingredients surely are there, so all that’s necessary is to infuse life into the persons body. Maybe a good dose of humility might help your web site to be a little more useful, instead of poking fun at others, when you don’t have the answers, either.

  16. Parrotlover77 Says:

    the presence of even one right handed molecule is enough to interrupt the process.

    Completely false. Isomers (including stereoisomers of amino acids you point out) exist everywhere in nature. And although in biology left handed amino acids (and right handed sugars) dominate, they are not exclusive!

    Now, as for the predominance of “left handed” amino acids throwing a wrench into evolution, how so? If anything that supports that all (or at least most) life evolved from a small amount of common ancestors rather than spontaneously fully formed by the hand of an intelligent creator. The creator could have easily made a balance of left and right “handed” biological organisms.

    I did a 30 second google and found a report on the origin of life and this isomer issue. This is one of many. It covers your questions and more. Read it and learn.

  17. Parrotlover77 Says:

    Maybe a good dose of humility might help your web site to be a little more useful, instead of poking fun at others, when you don’t have the answers, either.

    Then how come 30 seconds on the google yields so many answers whenever fundie trolls pose questions here?

  18. Ron Britton Says:

    Ben:

    I don’t believe that I am being unfair to Chuck Missler. I am always willing to stand corrected, if you can show me where I’m wrong. My reference to him as the “evolving peanut butter” guy was accompanied by a link to the video you talk about. Everybody can see the entire context of his claim. If there is additional information that is not in that video, he should have included it. Nevertheless, if you have additional information, you can share that here.

    What he claims in the video is that a jar of peanut butter, or any canned food for that matter, somehow replicates the conditions of the early Earth. Since life doesn’t spontaneously arise out of a jar of peanut butter, that “proves” that life could not have arisen in the early Earth. This claim is ludicrous and laughable. A jar of peanut butter is nothing like the early Earth. The ingredients, the temperature, the pressure, the amount of time, and numerous other conditions are not similar at all.

    As far as this web site being useful, I’ll leave that up to the readers to determine. I know it is useful to many of them. If anyone needs humility, though, it is the creationists who come in here and declare that all of science is wrong and only God could have created life.

  19. Mike Smith Says:

    I find it somewhat humurous that you state, “I’m maintaining that the work is not credible, because Cornuke received his Ph.D. from Louisiana Baptist University, an unaccredited far-right religious school.”

    University of Oxford (United Kingdom), the University of Oslo (Norway), the University of Sydney (Australia), University of Tübingen (Germany), the University of Tokyo: none of these major universities are accredited by an American accrediting agency.
    Harvard University is and has been accredited BUT by its OWN regional agency since 1929!

    It seems pretty foolish to dismiss material SIMPLY because of where the researcher got his diploma!! The material researched is still valid.

    ms

  20. ParrotLover77 Says:

    1. Harvard’s reputation stands on its own.
    2. The other universities aren’t in the United States… Why would they be?
    3. Louisiana Baptist University is in the USA, is not accredited, and is known for being a diploma mill.

  21. Jeremy White Says:

    As for the peanut butter, pretending that because canned food doesn’t create life is a logical fallacy: Argumentum ad logicam. It’s a straw man argument. When did scientist say canned food will bring forth life? Its fun to compare apples to oranges, but of course only a ignorant fool would think they are the same thing.

    As for the college, just because someone has a degree in something doesn’t make the research valid. Period. This is true of Harvard, UCLA, Purdue, and Louisiana Baptist. However, at least a person from an accredited college has proven some scholarly merit just to get a diploma from a institution which has passed a rigorous review from an unbiased source. This is not so with Louisiana Baptist University, and thus makes it even less likely that a graduate has proven scholarly merit. So on what grounds can we assume the research is valid?

  22. Cameron Says:

    Jeez, do you guys usually have to deal with this many dim bulbs in each comment thread? I admire your tenacity, I certainly don’t have the stomach for it. Keep up the good work!

  23. sparks Says:

    yeah ron britton! good job holding ‘em off! I admire your intelligence and persistence.

  24. James Says:

    Just a few quick responses.

    We usuallly round off pi to the hundreths, 3.14. Though 3.1415926535897…. would be move accurate, it does not invalidate 3.14 as pi. Though less accurate than 3.14, when rounded to a whole number 3 would be the correct answer. Like the Greeks, the ancient Hebrews used letters for numbers and did not have a system for fractions, dealing with whole numbers only. Hence the number 3 would be correct. Not to mention the fact that they were measuring a man made object which might not have been perfectly round to begin with.

    Isaih said the earth was a ball hanging in the heavens.

    The Bible also states “a day is as a thousand years, a thousand years a day to the Lord”. Time has no meaning to an eternal being. Genesis was never meant to be a scientific journal, more of an illustration in a prescientific era that God created the world in 6 primary “evolutionary” stages ending with the advent of man.

  25. Ron Britton Says:

    Genesis was never meant to be a scientific journal

    Tell that to the millions of people who claim it is.

  26. Parrotlover77 Says:

    Yay! Biblical interpretation gymnastics! I would love to see a link to the Isaiah passage mentioning specifically a “ball.” I have never heard that one before.

  27. Mr. Logic Says:

    I am an ex Agnostic. Hated being one but was until 38 years old. I honestly didn’t think that there was any real proof of God. boy was I wrong, but I was wrong because of all the bad defenses put up by Christians! “Just believe”? Is that a defense?

    The problem come in when People are told that they must believe in Christianity rather than Christ.
    They are also told that they must believe in “The Bible”, Note: One is Catholic and one Protestant, yet you must believe in “It”?

    I remember when I had already been a serious student of the Word for about 5 years when I heard a Radio Preacher say that Luther rejected James. This is just one of the things censored from the General Public. I rejected James about 2 years earlier so was quite impressed with Luther, whom I knew little about prior to that time.
    Funny how so many have gone back to their old Catholic ways of the Mother church (World church).
    Luther was a seeker in many areas, so was way ahead of most “Religious” Leaders.
    I have proven myself that 1. Jesus never commanded a dip in water with 3 names chanted over someone. 2 That James was written by the Head of a Different kind of Chrisianity than Paul taught.
    3. That no writer in the N.T. ever said a word about believing in a completed canon (Bible). The scriptures are plural.
    4. That the Church Age began on Pentecost. Jesus said before that “On this rock “I will” build my church (future tense). Most think that Peter and John etc. were part of the Church, but it didn’t exist until after Christ died. Jesus said “keep the Law of Moses” when the Law was still in effect. No one needs to keep the law of Moses today, for the law of Christ is inward, and automatic.
    A changed heart doesn’t need to be threatened to do the right thing. Hope this helps someone.

  28. Greg Says:

    Parrotlover,

    Try Isaiah 40:22.

  29. Sarah Says:

    (Facepalm) So many fallacies…I think I lost five more brain cells, Ron.

  30. Ron Britton Says:

    Sarah:

    Which fallacies are you referring to? There are quite a few on this page!

  31. Ron Britton Says:

    Greg:

    It’s odd that you refer us to Isaiah 40:22. That passage refers to the Earth being flat. Two good articles discuss that:

    The Bible’s flat earth/solid sky dome universe
    and
    The Flat-Earth Bible

  32. Sarah Says:

    All of them. Just the sheer amount…Ugh..how can they NOT notice!?

  33. Andrew N.P. Says:

    Thank you, Ron. I still can’t figure out why bibliolaters use that verse as evidence of a spherical earth. Do these people not know what a tent looks like? A solid sheet propped up over a flat bottom… hey, a lot like the cosmos of the Ancient Near East.

  34. Parrotlover77 Says:

    They see a vague reference to “circle” and assume circle = sphere. Obviously a circle is no more a sphere than a triangle is a pyramid, a square is a cube, or a Mac is useful.

  35. Sue Blue Says:

    Not only is there no mention of the earth as a sphere in the Bible, the goatherding nomads of the day also seemed to have no clue that the moon and sun are spheres. In Genesis 1:14-18 (day 4 of creation – one wonders what the light source was in “let there be light” on day 1), the sun and moon are called “lights” and God “set them in the firmament” to rule over the day and night. There is not even a mention of any movement, rotation, phases of the moon, or any other celestial facts that were obvious to other ancient cultures clear back to Stonehenge and beyond. Not only were the biblical authors ignorant by today’s standards, they weren’t even up to par 3,000 years ago.

  36. john b Says:

    We’ll where do I begin…First I would like to refer all the bible beleiver haters to look at the real evidence of the Red Sea crossing…Look up the video’s on youtube on The red sea crossing based on the first findings of Ron Wyatt-this place has all the earmarks mentioned in scripture including chariot wheels in the Sea with a natural land bridge under the sea, The real Mt Sinia(which is in Arabia where the Apostle paul said it was in New Testament) it has all the discriptions of it given in the bible & is fenced off by the Saudi government now complete with a guard house-it has all the components given in the scriptures which you will see on the videos(taken by dozens of people)…he also found sodom & gamorah complete with brimstone! The most fascinating find is the Ark of the Covenant which is immediately under the place where Christ was cruxified…I know, I know you don’t beleive in God, but surely you can take time to watch the video & archaeologist evidence?

  37. Ron Britton Says:

    Sure. I could use a laugh. I’ll go over there eventually and look at that stuff. I’ll even evaluate it fairly. You’ll just have to understand that I’ve heard this refrain a thousand times. “This time it’s different! It really is ____ (Noah’s Ark, the Holy Grail, the Ark of Indiana Jones, Jesus’ dick, Jimmy Hoffa, etc.).” Every single time, the evidence has crumbled under scrutiny. That doesn’t mean that this time it can’t be true. It just means that this time once again it probably isn’t true.

    You Bible archaeology nuts have the same problem the UFO nuts have. There are so many wackos and false sightings and falsified data that you lose all credibility. It also makes it difficult to prove your claims. How can we believe you guys this time when every single time before was a false positive? Do some house cleaning first. If you want to be taken seriously, push the loonies and posers out of your ranks.

    (Note that Biblical archaeology is a completely legitimate science when it excavates sites from that time period and evaluates them within the scope of existing data. It falls off the cliff when pretend archaeologists like Robert Cornuke (mentioned in the article) go running off to Mount Ararat to find Noah’s Ark and prove Genesis.)

    Finally, just for clarity, I’d like to point out that Noah’s Ark will never be found. I can say that definitively, because the biblical flood described in Genesis never happened. You can’t find what never existed.

    For the same reason, it is extremely unlikely that the location of the Red Sea crossing will ever be found. That is because there is scant evidence that the Exodus ever happened or that the Jews were even imprisoned in Egypt.

  38. Parrotlover77 Says:

    Not to be an ass or anything, but there may, indeed, be an ark that spawned forth the embellished Noah story we know of today. Of course, it won’t look anything like what is described in the bible. If the story is even anywhere close to what reality was, it likely was just a farmer putting two or five of his farm animals on a fishing boat to attempt to survive some sort of regional flood disaster of some sort. But more likely, the protaganist was just completely made-up when the flood story was co-opted from previous older religions, cultures, and story-tellers.

    But I just had to say that there might be a teensy weensy chance of finding some sort of ancient boat that was relevant in the origins of the story. ;-)

  39. Another Steve Says:

    Let me start by observing that the laws of thermodynamics are statistical in nature. To my point: there is a vanishingly small but non-zero probability that an attempt to cook a meal on a stove just might cause the food to freeze solid, and the stove or some portion of it to melt.

    That said, I rate the likelihood of their actually being an ark just slightly less likely than the above.

    Can’t you just see a bunch of hunter gatherers sitting around a fire some night after an especially successful hunt, with unusually full stomachs, and “turning on the TV” for a little entertainment?…Come on grandpa, tell us a story about…

    Or maybe it goes the other way: Food is in short supply, and grandpa tells the little ones an especially good story about the giant sky pixie who really likes us a bunch, and I’m sure food will be plentiful tomorrow…Here’s a story about some nut-job and a boat…err something like that.

  40. Parrotlover77 Says:

    I’m just saying… It could have started out with “crazy uncle Noah” putting his damn farm animals on his boat again while dancing naked under the moon constantly talking about the “coming flood.” Then a giant tsunami hit a few years later and while his boat is tumbling over and over with him yelling “I TOLD YOU SO!” he suddenly becomes a folk hero.

  41. Carl Parsons Says:

    Your attitude on this page is not helpful to any serious study in archaeology, whether it be related to Biblical history, world history, or studies into mythological roots.

    It is true that the nation of Israel came from somewhere in history. That they claim to be slaves is no doubt true, as few people groups would embelish this part of their history. That they were once slaves in Egypt is also not likely to be suspect, the most likely time period being that during the Tuthmosis period (not the Ramses period, as Hollywood has typically referenced). One notes the similarity of Tuthmosis and Moses, along with several internal references that fall into place in an honest study of the period, plus the “defaced Tuthmosis” in hieroglyphs of the period.

    It is also interesting to note that all ancient cultures have flood legends, and that all of them have similar elements that show they are obviously referencing an historical event. They only vary on some of the details and the “why” of the flood.

    A serious study of this subject, or any other study of antiquity, begins with an open mind. The attitude of this board represents little more than childish mockery of real investigative research.

  42. Ron Britton Says:

    Carl:

    Your attitude on this page is not helpful to any serious study in archaeology

    On the contrary. My attitude is essential for discrediting the credulous. Archaeology, like all sciences, requires evidence and rigor. People such as Robert Cornuke are not qualified to even be in the same room with real archaeologists. They need to be not only laughed out of the room, but the entire state.

    I quoted reputable archaeologists from that documentary, and they concluded that there is currently insufficient evidence to support his wild claims. Therefore, both my conclusions and attitude are justifiable, because both are based on more evidence than Cornuke has provided for his conclusions.

    Your statements about Israel and their history with Egypt are legitimate issues worth exploring. Such investigation needs to be done within the bounds of archaeological procedures and standards. Reading something in the Bible and trying to make the facts fit is not science. The Biblical story of the Israelites in Egypt is not consistent with the evidence.

    Yes, most ancient cultures have flood myths. I have never disputed this. In fact, all evidence indicates that many of these flood myths descend from a common ancestor. I fail to see how anything I’ve written here can be a problem for you.

    A serious study of this subject, or any other study of antiquity, begins with an open mind.

    Absolutely. That’s something that Cornuke and his ilk do not bring to this field.

    My mind has always been open. All it waits for is evidence. And it waits. And it waits.

  43. Parrotlover77 Says:

    …most ancient cultures have flood myths…

    There are certainly quite a few culturally significant ancient flood myths, but most ancient cultures have a flood myth? I’m not sure that’s accurate… is it? There were a hell of a lot of ancient cultures on this world!

  44. Ron Britton Says:

    PL:

    There are certainly quite a few culturally significant ancient flood myths, but most ancient cultures have a flood myth?

    Carl, our alleged-expert anthropologist said all ancient cultures. Clearly, he is not qualified to make the allegations against me that he does, if he makes ridiculous statements like that.

    I was being kind by backing it off a notch and conceding “most”. I’m not sure how you would go about quantifying that. However, I have this great book (I assume it’s great, I’ve only had time to skim it so far) called Parallel Myths by J.F. Bierlein. He has a whole chapter on flood myths. Here are the stories mentioned:

    • Noah
    • Manu and the Fish (India)
    • Utnapishtim (Babylonia)
    • Flood Myth of Hawaii
    • Tata and Nena (Aztec)
    • Deucalion (Greece)
    • North American Flood Myths
    • Flood Myth of the Incas
    • Flood Myth of Egypt

    I’m sure there are others, but that’s what he chose to include in the book. Our fear of getting washed away and drowning seems to be universal. The wide geographic diversity also shows that they didn’t all descend from a common ancestor, although I suspect some/many/most/all of the Middle Eastern ones did.

  45. Parrotlover77 Says:

    Fascinating! I will have to check that book out.

  46. Nick Says:

    First of all there was no ruby slippers second of all your reiteration of the story is completely distorted. I’m sorry to say that for those readers who really want to be enlightened by the REAL story behind this film I suggest you look els where. T.Y!

  47. Nick Says:

    EVERYTHING in the bible is true. Why? because God himself is the PRIMARY author. As we all know the hagiographers (writers) of the bible was given “charism of inspiration” so that they will be able to write everything that God told them with out error.

  48. Lindsay Says:

    It’s amazing how context is everything. Because the bible was largely written a few thousand years ago the “hagiographers” HAD to be inspired by God. But if are at the bus stop and some guy starts telling you that God was in his head and telling him things, you would try to get as far away from him as possible. How do we know that the “hagiographers” weren’t batshit insane too?

  49. Ron Britton Says:

    Nick:

    First of all there was no ruby slippers

    No ruby slippers?! My priest lied to me!

    second of all your reiteration of the story is completely distorted.

    Really? I’m pretty sure I told it exactly like it happened. I mean, why would I make up a completely different version of the story? I’d only do that if I were trying to show the absurdity of the story. And you’d only miss the whole point of my retelling if your intellectual faculties were so shallow that you were incapable of analyzing anything you read beyond the shallowest surface layer. But I’m sure you aren’t that much of a mental defective.

    EVERYTHING in the bible is true.

    Never mind.