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	<title>Comments on: My Own Limits of Belief</title>
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	<description>Keeping the Radical Right at Bay</description>
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		<title>By: LadyRavana</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief/comment-page-1#comment-21051</link>
		<dc:creator>LadyRavana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 07:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hey, Ron. I&#039;m a liberal.

We haven&#039;t gone extinct. We&#039;re still alive and well. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, Ron. I&#8217;m a liberal.</p>
<p>We haven&#8217;t gone extinct. We&#8217;re still alive and well. <img src='http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: cipher</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief/comment-page-1#comment-21027</link>
		<dc:creator>cipher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:38:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief#comment-21027</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;One billion seconds ago was the year 1976 CE. (There were still liberals in America!)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;ve heard this before, but I don&#039;t really believe it. I&#039;ve never seen any transitional forms!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>One billion seconds ago was the year 1976 CE. (There were still liberals in America!)</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;ve heard this before, but I don&#8217;t really believe it. I&#8217;ve never seen any transitional forms!</p>
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		<title>By: Sue Blue</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief/comment-page-1#comment-20995</link>
		<dc:creator>Sue Blue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 04:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief#comment-20995</guid>
		<description>You&#039;ve gotta love those big, big numbers!  That&#039;s why I always laugh when I hear some creationist blathering on about how there hasn&#039;t been enough time for all of the mutations to occur  to get from single-celled organisms a couple of billion years ago to the life we have today.  These folks obviously don&#039;t have even the vaguest conception of &quot;deep time&quot;.   

I had a biology teacher in high school who gave one of the best illustrations of the enormity of these numbers that I&#039;ve ever seen.  He passed around a huge, thick paperback book.  Every single page, all one thousand of them, was printed top to bottom and side to side with tiny black dots, a thousand dots per page.  He let us thumb through the book, contemplating all those dots, while he brought some large boxes into the room on a dolly.  &quot;There are one million dots in that book,&quot; he said.  &quot;Imagine that each of those dots is one year.&quot;  

He pulled what looked like more of the million-dot books out of the boxes and stacked them up.  &quot;Ten books - ten million years&quot;.  It was a big stack.  &quot;Now, imagine six stacks like this, plus three extra books.  That takes us back to the dinosaurs.&quot;  He let us think about that for a while, then asked us to imagine ten stacks of ten books, then ten times that.  Finally, he had us envisioning four thousand books packed into the school, with five hundred more spilling out onto the lawn.  &quot;And that&#039;s how old the earth is.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ve gotta love those big, big numbers!  That&#8217;s why I always laugh when I hear some creationist blathering on about how there hasn&#8217;t been enough time for all of the mutations to occur  to get from single-celled organisms a couple of billion years ago to the life we have today.  These folks obviously don&#8217;t have even the vaguest conception of &#8220;deep time&#8221;.   </p>
<p>I had a biology teacher in high school who gave one of the best illustrations of the enormity of these numbers that I&#8217;ve ever seen.  He passed around a huge, thick paperback book.  Every single page, all one thousand of them, was printed top to bottom and side to side with tiny black dots, a thousand dots per page.  He let us thumb through the book, contemplating all those dots, while he brought some large boxes into the room on a dolly.  &#8220;There are one million dots in that book,&#8221; he said.  &#8220;Imagine that each of those dots is one year.&#8221;  </p>
<p>He pulled what looked like more of the million-dot books out of the boxes and stacked them up.  &#8220;Ten books &#8211; ten million years&#8221;.  It was a big stack.  &#8220;Now, imagine six stacks like this, plus three extra books.  That takes us back to the dinosaurs.&#8221;  He let us think about that for a while, then asked us to imagine ten stacks of ten books, then ten times that.  Finally, he had us envisioning four thousand books packed into the school, with five hundred more spilling out onto the lawn.  &#8220;And that&#8217;s how old the earth is.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Bacopa</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief/comment-page-1#comment-20992</link>
		<dc:creator>Bacopa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 04:19:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief#comment-20992</guid>
		<description>Wow! You&#039;ve got a rat! I love rats.

Don&#039;t forget about the racism of the Ancient Astronaut hypothesis. They never say the Roman aqueducts were laid out with laser beams from spaceships. Why not? The Romans were white people! But there&#039;s no way those browner people could have done anything impressive. The Pantheon dome can be so close to perfectly round, but those stocky little Andean people couldn&#039;t have traced the Nazca figures.

BTW, I won&#039;t know whether the pyramid builders were slaves or not, but they treated very well. An analysis of their bodies reveals almost no sign of nutritional stress and that they got effective medical care for on the job injuries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow! You&#8217;ve got a rat! I love rats.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t forget about the racism of the Ancient Astronaut hypothesis. They never say the Roman aqueducts were laid out with laser beams from spaceships. Why not? The Romans were white people! But there&#8217;s no way those browner people could have done anything impressive. The Pantheon dome can be so close to perfectly round, but those stocky little Andean people couldn&#8217;t have traced the Nazca figures.</p>
<p>BTW, I won&#8217;t know whether the pyramid builders were slaves or not, but they treated very well. An analysis of their bodies reveals almost no sign of nutritional stress and that they got effective medical care for on the job injuries.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Britton</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief/comment-page-1#comment-20941</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Britton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:43:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief#comment-20941</guid>
		<description>There is some debate over whether the Egyptians actually used slaves, and if they did, what percentage of the workforce they were.  I don&#039;t know what the consensus of historians currently is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is some debate over whether the Egyptians actually used slaves, and if they did, what percentage of the workforce they were.  I don&#8217;t know what the consensus of historians currently is.</p>
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		<title>By: melior</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief/comment-page-1#comment-20915</link>
		<dc:creator>melior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:24:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief#comment-20915</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Managing a project on that scale with the huge workforce and supply problems they had would have been impossible if not for that other human invention: Bureaucracy.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I thought you were gonna say &quot;slavery&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Managing a project on that scale with the huge workforce and supply problems they had would have been impossible if not for that other human invention: Bureaucracy.</p></blockquote>
<p>I thought you were gonna say &#8220;slavery&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: ericsan</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief/comment-page-1#comment-20871</link>
		<dc:creator>ericsan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 22:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief#comment-20871</guid>
		<description>OMG! Terrifying! They&#039;re onto us! This link may work better:
http://stargate-sg1-solutions.com/wiki/Ha%27tak</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OMG! Terrifying! They&#8217;re onto us! This link may work better:<br />
<a href="http://stargate-sg1-solutions.com/wiki/Ha%27tak" rel="nofollow">http://stargate-sg1-solutions.com/wiki/Ha%27tak</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ron Britton</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief/comment-page-1#comment-20830</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Britton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 05:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief#comment-20830</guid>
		<description>Ericsan:

You must be right!  That page is now blank!  The government is suppressing the truth!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ericsan:</p>
<p>You must be right!  That page is now blank!  The government is suppressing the truth!</p>
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		<title>By: ericsan</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief/comment-page-1#comment-20825</link>
		<dc:creator>ericsan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:48:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief#comment-20825</guid>
		<description>Pfff. Everybody knows the pyramids were built by the Goa&#039;uld as landing pads for Ha&#039;tak class starships.
http://stargate-sg1-solutions.com/wiki/Ha&#039;tak</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pfff. Everybody knows the pyramids were built by the Goa&#8217;uld as landing pads for Ha&#8217;tak class starships.<br />
<a href="http://stargate-sg1-solutions.com/wiki/Ha" rel="nofollow">http://stargate-sg1-solutions.com/wiki/Ha</a>&#8216;tak</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief/comment-page-1#comment-20813</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 01:39:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief#comment-20813</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s true, what&#039;s impressive about ZFS are things like snapshots and storage pools (worth installing OpenSolaris just to play with, btw). I got on the mental ZFS track from thinking about actual limits versus limits of belief. I figured 2^128th was easier to get into than quantum limits to Moore&#039;s Law.

For me, what we&#039;ve done with software is much more impressive than hardware. Don&#039;t get me wrong, all forms of physical engineering are very difficult, requiring leaps of creativity and insight along with Herculean patience for trial and error. But from a complexity standpoint, contemporary software is a mind-blowing accomplishment. It&#039;s probably one of the reasons there are a lot of atheist programmers (trying to get back on topic...).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s true, what&#8217;s impressive about ZFS are things like snapshots and storage pools (worth installing OpenSolaris just to play with, btw). I got on the mental ZFS track from thinking about actual limits versus limits of belief. I figured 2^128th was easier to get into than quantum limits to Moore&#8217;s Law.</p>
<p>For me, what we&#8217;ve done with software is much more impressive than hardware. Don&#8217;t get me wrong, all forms of physical engineering are very difficult, requiring leaps of creativity and insight along with Herculean patience for trial and error. But from a complexity standpoint, contemporary software is a mind-blowing accomplishment. It&#8217;s probably one of the reasons there are a lot of atheist programmers (trying to get back on topic&#8230;).</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief/comment-page-1#comment-20812</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 01:25:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief#comment-20812</guid>
		<description>As everyone knows, humans built the pyramids, but we were told how to do it by alien predators we worshipped as gods who came here to hunt another alien species that grew inside human hosts who willingly sacrificed themselves to this fate. Of course, things got out of hand when the alien-to-predator ratio became untenable, so to make things all better, the predators annihilated the aliens with their amazingly portable bombs, unfortunately taking the human civilization with it. Hence the sudden collapse of these cultures. 

(Parrotlover, I&#039;ll see your geek out and raise you!)

It really is amazing to consider just how advanced many ancient civilizations were. In addition to the Egyptians, there were the Minoans, who out-Romed the Romans in many ways. There were the Mayans and the Incans, whose cultures not only made tremendous strides in astronomy and agriculture, but also managed to thrive and flourish in delicate ecosystems for centuries without putting too much pressure on the environment around them. The Chinese (don&#039;t ask me which dynasty or dynasties were responsible) built the largest wall on Earth, and they weren&#039;t even worried about Mexicans sneaking in illegally! 

Yet many people arrogantly, perhaps with even a touch of racism, assume that these cultures were far too &quot;primitive&quot; to know their asses from holes in the ground. These people existed, in their own unique ways, for far longer than what we think of as Western Civilization has been around, and they did it, incidentally, without knowing dick about Jesus or that stupid ark.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As everyone knows, humans built the pyramids, but we were told how to do it by alien predators we worshipped as gods who came here to hunt another alien species that grew inside human hosts who willingly sacrificed themselves to this fate. Of course, things got out of hand when the alien-to-predator ratio became untenable, so to make things all better, the predators annihilated the aliens with their amazingly portable bombs, unfortunately taking the human civilization with it. Hence the sudden collapse of these cultures. </p>
<p>(Parrotlover, I&#8217;ll see your geek out and raise you!)</p>
<p>It really is amazing to consider just how advanced many ancient civilizations were. In addition to the Egyptians, there were the Minoans, who out-Romed the Romans in many ways. There were the Mayans and the Incans, whose cultures not only made tremendous strides in astronomy and agriculture, but also managed to thrive and flourish in delicate ecosystems for centuries without putting too much pressure on the environment around them. The Chinese (don&#8217;t ask me which dynasty or dynasties were responsible) built the largest wall on Earth, and they weren&#8217;t even worried about Mexicans sneaking in illegally! </p>
<p>Yet many people arrogantly, perhaps with even a touch of racism, assume that these cultures were far too &#8220;primitive&#8221; to know their asses from holes in the ground. These people existed, in their own unique ways, for far longer than what we think of as Western Civilization has been around, and they did it, incidentally, without knowing dick about Jesus or that stupid ark.</p>
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		<title>By: Parrotlover77</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief/comment-page-1#comment-20800</link>
		<dc:creator>Parrotlover77</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:47:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/452/my-own-limits-of-belief#comment-20800</guid>
		<description>I dunno, Jesse... I could, tonight, come up with a file system that had a 256 bit address space.  It would be a pointless file system, but it could be done.  With that I&#039;m sure you could exhaust the remainder of the Sun&#039;s energy (speculating), but without having actually &lt;em&gt;achieved&lt;/em&gt; said maximal limits on storage capacity, I don&#039;t really see ZFS&#039;s 128-bit address space being that impressive, in and of itself.  Now, the capacity to beyond 64-bit is good (as he said, the target audience is already less than 14 doublings away from needing at least 65-bit address space).  128-bit was logical simply because it was &quot;double 64&quot; or 2^7 (64 being 2^6) bits, and these days storage isn&#039;t really a concern when it comes to computations.  It&#039;s just as easy to load 128 bits into two 64-bit registers as it is to, say, load 96 bits into two 64-bit registers.

Whoa, I got to geek out on BoF.  Sorry for straying so far.  I guess back on topic, I&#039;m more impressed with implementation than just specs. ;-)  Indeed, if somebody figures that out without boiling oceans, we will have superceded magic, aliens, and all that. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dunno, Jesse&#8230; I could, tonight, come up with a file system that had a 256 bit address space.  It would be a pointless file system, but it could be done.  With that I&#8217;m sure you could exhaust the remainder of the Sun&#8217;s energy (speculating), but without having actually <em>achieved</em> said maximal limits on storage capacity, I don&#8217;t really see ZFS&#8217;s 128-bit address space being that impressive, in and of itself.  Now, the capacity to beyond 64-bit is good (as he said, the target audience is already less than 14 doublings away from needing at least 65-bit address space).  128-bit was logical simply because it was &#8220;double 64&#8243; or 2^7 (64 being 2^6) bits, and these days storage isn&#8217;t really a concern when it comes to computations.  It&#8217;s just as easy to load 128 bits into two 64-bit registers as it is to, say, load 96 bits into two 64-bit registers.</p>
<p>Whoa, I got to geek out on BoF.  Sorry for straying so far.  I guess back on topic, I&#8217;m more impressed with implementation than just specs. <img src='http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />   Indeed, if somebody figures that out without boiling oceans, we will have superceded magic, aliens, and all that. <img src='http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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