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	<title>Comments on: Protect the Constitution, not the Pledge</title>
	<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge</link>
	<description>Keeping the Radical Right at Bay</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 03:29:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Ron Britton</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-7643</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 02:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-7643</guid>
					<description>Julie:

Thank you for your most literate and intelligent comment.  Let&#8217;s look at what you said:

&lt;blockquote&gt;First of all, we are not pledging to God&#8230;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes we are.  We are pledging to both the nation and to God.  That&#8217;s what &#8220;one nation under God&#8221; means.

&lt;blockquote&gt;&#8230;or vowing to him our loyalty&#8230;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes we are.  That&#8217;s what the Pledge is.  A loyalty oath.  That&#8217;s what &#8220;I pledge allegiance&#8221; means.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Its &lt;i&gt;[sic]&lt;/i&gt; to our country.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No.  &lt;i&gt;It&#8217;s&lt;/i&gt; to our country.

&lt;a href="http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif" rel="nofollow"&gt;&lt;img src="http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2007/bob-its.500.gif" width="500" height="268" class="centered" border="0" alt="it's = it is" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;div align="center"&gt;&lt;font size="-1"&gt;(Bob the Angry Flower. &lt;a href="http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif" target="_blank" title="Go to Bob the Angry Flower. Opens in new window." rel="nofollow"&gt;Click here for larger view&lt;/a&gt;.)&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/div&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;I think it is down right &lt;i&gt;[sic]&lt;/i&gt; rude&#8230;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, I can&#8217;t get down with that.  Maybe it&#8217;s &lt;a href="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/downright" target="_blank" title="Go to The Free Dictionary Online. Opens in new window." rel="nofollow"&gt;downright&lt;/a&gt; rude?

&lt;blockquote&gt;&#8230;and irrogant&#8230; &lt;i&gt;[sic]&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#8217;m having trouble understanding you.  The closest word is &#8220;&lt;a href="http://www.answers.com/topic/irrigant-1" target="_blank" title="Look up 'irrigant' at Answers.com. Opens in new window." rel="nofollow"&gt;irrigant&lt;/a&gt;&#8221;.  Is that what you mean?

&lt;img src="http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2007/irrigant.jpg" width="133" height="200" class="centered" border="0" alt="Irrigant" /&gt;
&lt;div align="center"&gt;&lt;font size="-1"&gt;Hey, everybody, I&#8217;m an irrigant!&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/div&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;&#8230;for you to sit there and mock people who are only speaking what they feel is right.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Guess what, Julie?  We live in a democracy.  People are allowed to state their opinions, and other people are allowed to disagree.  If you don&#8217;t like that, why don&#8217;t &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; move to another country?

&lt;blockquote&gt;Not only are you mocking your fellow citizens but the congress and our government.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Oh, horrors!  I&#8217;m a terrible, &lt;i&gt;terrible&lt;/i&gt; person!  I&#8217;m exercising the rights guaranteed to me by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and mocking our government!

&lt;blockquote&gt;If you are so unhappy with our country why dont &lt;i&gt;[sic]&lt;/i&gt; you speak to our founding forefathers who established the Constitution and the Pledge of Allegiance.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Why don&#8217;t you speak to a history book and learn that our founding fathers had nothing to do with the Pledge of Allegiance?

&lt;blockquote&gt;Or for the sakes of peoples &lt;i&gt;[sic]&lt;/i&gt; faith and hope just move to another country and hopefully your &lt;i&gt;[sic]&lt;/i&gt; happier there!&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If &lt;em&gt;you&#8217;re&lt;/em&gt; so upset with the rights granted by the Constitution, I think it is you who should move to another country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julie:</p>
<p>Thank you for your most literate and intelligent comment.  Let&#8217;s look at what you said:</p>
<blockquote><p>First of all, we are not pledging to God&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes we are.  We are pledging to both the nation and to God.  That&#8217;s what &#8220;one nation under God&#8221; means.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;or vowing to him our loyalty&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes we are.  That&#8217;s what the Pledge is.  A loyalty oath.  That&#8217;s what &#8220;I pledge allegiance&#8221; means.</p>
<blockquote><p>Its <i>[sic]</i> to our country.</p></blockquote>
<p>No.  <i>It&#8217;s</i> to our country.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2007/bob-its.500.gif" width="500" height="268" class="centered" border="0" alt="it's = it is" /></a></p>
<div align="center"><font size="-1">(Bob the Angry Flower. <a href="http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif" target="_blank" title="Go to Bob the Angry Flower. Opens in new window." rel="nofollow">Click here for larger view</a>.)</font></div>
<blockquote><p>I think it is down right <i>[sic]</i> rude&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>No, I can&#8217;t get down with that.  Maybe it&#8217;s <a href="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/downright" target="_blank" title="Go to The Free Dictionary Online. Opens in new window." rel="nofollow">downright</a> rude?</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;and irrogant&#8230; <i>[sic]</i></p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m having trouble understanding you.  The closest word is &#8220;<a href="http://www.answers.com/topic/irrigant-1" target="_blank" title="Look up 'irrigant' at Answers.com. Opens in new window." rel="nofollow">irrigant</a>&#8221;.  Is that what you mean?</p>
<p><img src="http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2007/irrigant.jpg" width="133" height="200" class="centered" border="0" alt="Irrigant" /></p>
<div align="center"><font size="-1">Hey, everybody, I&#8217;m an irrigant!</font></div>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;for you to sit there and mock people who are only speaking what they feel is right.</p></blockquote>
<p>Guess what, Julie?  We live in a democracy.  People are allowed to state their opinions, and other people are allowed to disagree.  If you don&#8217;t like that, why don&#8217;t <i>you</i> move to another country?</p>
<blockquote><p>Not only are you mocking your fellow citizens but the congress and our government.</p></blockquote>
<p>Oh, horrors!  I&#8217;m a terrible, <i>terrible</i> person!  I&#8217;m exercising the rights guaranteed to me by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and mocking our government!</p>
<blockquote><p>If you are so unhappy with our country why dont <i>[sic]</i> you speak to our founding forefathers who established the Constitution and the Pledge of Allegiance.</p></blockquote>
<p>Why don&#8217;t you speak to a history book and learn that our founding fathers had nothing to do with the Pledge of Allegiance?</p>
<blockquote><p>Or for the sakes of peoples <i>[sic]</i> faith and hope just move to another country and hopefully your <i>[sic]</i> happier there!</p></blockquote>
<p>If <em>you&#8217;re</em> so upset with the rights granted by the Constitution, I think it is you who should move to another country.
</p>
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		<title>by: julie</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-7639</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 01:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-7639</guid>
					<description>First of all, we are not pledging to God or vowing to him our loyalty when we recite the Pledge of Allegiance.  Its to our country.  I think it is down right rude and irrogant for you to sit there and mock people who are only speaking what they feel is right.  Not only are you mocking your fellow citizens but the congress and our government.  If you are so unhappy with our country why dont you speak to our founding forefathers who established the Constitution and the Pledge of Allegiance.  Or for the sakes of peoples faith and hope just move to another country and hopefully your happier there!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, we are not pledging to God or vowing to him our loyalty when we recite the Pledge of Allegiance.  Its to our country.  I think it is down right rude and irrogant for you to sit there and mock people who are only speaking what they feel is right.  Not only are you mocking your fellow citizens but the congress and our government.  If you are so unhappy with our country why dont you speak to our founding forefathers who established the Constitution and the Pledge of Allegiance.  Or for the sakes of peoples faith and hope just move to another country and hopefully your happier there!
</p>
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		<title>by: Ron Britton</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-7063</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:26:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-7063</guid>
					<description>Bob:

I used to do that sort of thing myself, but I got to wondering if the congressmen just tally how many emails come in from one source and assume they're all alike.  I don't know if it really counts as a contrary vote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob:</p>
<p>I used to do that sort of thing myself, but I got to wondering if the congressmen just tally how many emails come in from one source and assume they&#8217;re all alike.  I don&#8217;t know if it really counts as a contrary vote.
</p>
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		<title>by: Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-7062</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:13:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-7062</guid>
					<description>I just went to RightMarch.com and used their service to send a letter to my representative, except I edited their letter to ask my congressman to oppose the Bill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just went to RightMarch.com and used their service to send a letter to my representative, except I edited their letter to ask my congressman to oppose the Bill.
</p>
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		<title>by: Ron Britton</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-6979</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-6979</guid>
					<description>Brian:

I agree with you completely, but it is not extreme.  I actually don&#8217;t like the idea of the Pledge at all.  Forcing people to swear a loyalty oath is the sort of thing they do in fascist countries.

Not only should &#8220;under God&#8221; be eliminated, but all of the other words should be eliminated as well.  That isn&#8217;t going to happen.  The blind patriots are going to make sure that the Pledge stays around forever.  That&#8217;s also the reason that &#8220;under God&#8221; will remain in there forever.  It tends to be the non-thinkers, the blind patriots, the &#8220;God is on our side&#8221; types, the John Wayne &#8220;my country right or wrong&#8221; types who think that the Pledge has some sort of meaning.  To them, God = Country.  You can&#8217;t touch one without touching the other.

&lt;img src="http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2007/am-dad-flag.jpg" width="186" height="345" class="centered" border="0" alt="America: Love it blindly or leave it." /&gt;

Forcing schoolchildren to recite the Pledge does not make them patriotic.  But since they are forced to say it, &#8220;under God&#8221; has to be removed.  In its current state, it is not only an oath of fealty, but a prayer as well.  Heil Amerika.

&lt;img src="http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2007/pledge-utah.jpg" width="500" height="358" class="centered" border="0" alt="Part of the original salute" /&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian:</p>
<p>I agree with you completely, but it is not extreme.  I actually don&#8217;t like the idea of the Pledge at all.  Forcing people to swear a loyalty oath is the sort of thing they do in fascist countries.</p>
<p>Not only should &#8220;under God&#8221; be eliminated, but all of the other words should be eliminated as well.  That isn&#8217;t going to happen.  The blind patriots are going to make sure that the Pledge stays around forever.  That&#8217;s also the reason that &#8220;under God&#8221; will remain in there forever.  It tends to be the non-thinkers, the blind patriots, the &#8220;God is on our side&#8221; types, the John Wayne &#8220;my country right or wrong&#8221; types who think that the Pledge has some sort of meaning.  To them, God = Country.  You can&#8217;t touch one without touching the other.</p>
<p><img src="http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2007/am-dad-flag.jpg" width="186" height="345" class="centered" border="0" alt="America: Love it blindly or leave it." /></p>
<p>Forcing schoolchildren to recite the Pledge does not make them patriotic.  But since they are forced to say it, &#8220;under God&#8221; has to be removed.  In its current state, it is not only an oath of fealty, but a prayer as well.  Heil Amerika.</p>
<p><img src="http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2007/pledge-utah.jpg" width="500" height="358" class="centered" border="0" alt="Part of the original salute" />
</p>
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		<title>by: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-6978</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:11:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-6978</guid>
					<description>This may seem somewhat extreme, but I for one do not even feel the need to recite the Pledge to affirm my devotion to this country. Its a bit like those silly flag lapel pins that everyone started wearing after 9/11. As far as I'm concerned, its an empty, meaningless gesture. Do people who slap a yellow ribbon magnet on their Hummer really support the troops? Does a grade schooler really understand the meaning behind the pledge they've been made to memorize? 

Naturally saying something like this sends the super-patriots over the edge, often provoking the tired phrase "USA, love it or leave it". These people seem to believe that America can never do any wrong, and God is always on our side. Well, I love my children, and because I want them to grow up to be the best people they can be, I can't turn a blind eye whenever they do something wrong. I also want this country to be the best it can be, and that means doing more than reciting words I learned in grade school. It means looking at our country as it really was and is, and learning from that. This involves contact with reality, something that is impossible for people blinded by superficial patriotism or supernatural nonsense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This may seem somewhat extreme, but I for one do not even feel the need to recite the Pledge to affirm my devotion to this country. Its a bit like those silly flag lapel pins that everyone started wearing after 9/11. As far as I&#8217;m concerned, its an empty, meaningless gesture. Do people who slap a yellow ribbon magnet on their Hummer really support the troops? Does a grade schooler really understand the meaning behind the pledge they&#8217;ve been made to memorize? </p>
<p>Naturally saying something like this sends the super-patriots over the edge, often provoking the tired phrase &#8220;USA, love it or leave it&#8221;. These people seem to believe that America can never do any wrong, and God is always on our side. Well, I love my children, and because I want them to grow up to be the best people they can be, I can&#8217;t turn a blind eye whenever they do something wrong. I also want this country to be the best it can be, and that means doing more than reciting words I learned in grade school. It means looking at our country as it really was and is, and learning from that. This involves contact with reality, something that is impossible for people blinded by superficial patriotism or supernatural nonsense.
</p>
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		<title>by: Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-6961</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 03:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-6961</guid>
					<description>@legalities 
Would that not go against the principle of judicial review that states that that the Supreme Court has the final say in what laws or practices are Constitutional or not? Taking away this power could be seen as a power grab on behalf of the other branches, as this deals with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, making a precedent where the legislature could slowly take away judicial review. This would open the door for the legislative branch to trample all over the Constitution, as was a fear of Hamilton in Federalist 78. I just do not believe that the legislative branch would allow for this to happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@legalities<br />
Would that not go against the principle of judicial review that states that that the Supreme Court has the final say in what laws or practices are Constitutional or not? Taking away this power could be seen as a power grab on behalf of the other branches, as this deals with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, making a precedent where the legislature could slowly take away judicial review. This would open the door for the legislative branch to trample all over the Constitution, as was a fear of Hamilton in Federalist 78. I just do not believe that the legislative branch would allow for this to happen.
</p>
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		<title>by: Jr.</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-6955</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 00:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-6955</guid>
					<description>Other jr., you are my hero.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Other jr., you are my hero.
</p>
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		<title>by: Ron Britton</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-6941</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:20:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-6941</guid>
					<description>That's bad.  Why would they put that in there?  It defeats the whole purpose!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s bad.  Why would they put that in there?  It defeats the whole purpose!
</p>
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		<title>by: legalities</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-6939</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:20:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-6939</guid>
					<description>According to the U.S. Constitution, Article III, Section 2, it states, "the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress may by Law have directed."

So Congress, by majority vote and with the signature of the President, can make any exception it wants to regarding what the courts have jurisdiction over. If they want to remove the Pledge of Allegiance from the judiciary's jurisdiction, they can. If they wanted to remove abortion from the court's jurisdiction, they could - it's perfectly Constitutional, under A3S2.

Just a note.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to the U.S. Constitution, Article III, Section 2, it states, &#8220;the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress may by Law have directed.&#8221;</p>
<p>So Congress, by majority vote and with the signature of the President, can make any exception it wants to regarding what the courts have jurisdiction over. If they want to remove the Pledge of Allegiance from the judiciary&#8217;s jurisdiction, they can. If they wanted to remove abortion from the court&#8217;s jurisdiction, they could - it&#8217;s perfectly Constitutional, under A3S2.</p>
<p>Just a note.
</p>
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		<title>by: Jason Failes</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-6936</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:05:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-6936</guid>
					<description>So, if the whole point of the pledge is to unite the people of the United States indivisibly, why throw in God, traditionally the world's worst divider?

Irony anybody?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, if the whole point of the pledge is to unite the people of the United States indivisibly, why throw in God, traditionally the world&#8217;s worst divider?</p>
<p>Irony anybody?
</p>
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		<title>by: Ron Britton</title>
		<link>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-6934</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:50:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/258/protect-the-constitution-not-the-pledge#comment-6934</guid>
					<description>Well said, Jr.!  This is why merging church and state is as bad for the church as it is for the state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, Jr.!  This is why merging church and state is as bad for the church as it is for the state.
</p>
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