The Duggars—Parasites of Science
I’ve received a bit of flack, both in the comments on this site and elsewhere on the web, for my humorous but negative articles on the Duggar family. Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar are extreme fundamentalists. Their irresponsible and rampant fertility strains an already overpopulated world.
One of the things that bothers me the most about the Duggars isn’t limited to them. Almost all fundies are equally at fault on this one point (it’s just more obvious with the Duggars). That point is:
A parasite is an organism that sucks life from its host and provides nothing in return. This would be bad enough if it were merely freeloading, but a parasite actually burdens the host. Pile enough parasites onto one host, and it dies.
Christian fundamentalism and its toxic products (creationism, theocracy, superstition, misinformation, prejudice, fear, hate, etc.) are spreading. They even managed to get one of their own elected president.
The Duggars and almost all fundies suck all the benefits they can from the modern world—most notably the miracles of modern medicine—yet they deny evolution, the very core of modern biology, that makes all of this medicine possible.
As their ilk continue to press for the evisceration of science standards taught in the public schools, they are weakening the very host that gives them life.
I found a couple of excellent articles at Look Out, It’s Evil!. In the first article Professor Bleen has altered the Duggar family portrait to make the following point:
[T]he reason that the Duggars have [seventeen] live, healthy children, instead of nine or ten clinging to life with varying success, is the triumph of science over the medieval superstition they teach their children—and want taught to all American schoolchildren—in place of science.
That’s right. Without modern science, without modern biology, without evolution!, their healthy, giant family would be neither healthy nor quite so giant. Yet they advocate policies that would destroy the very miracles that they enjoy.
Professor Bleen has another article that is even better. He writes:
I rant about the Duggars not for their beliefs per se, but because they insist they have the right to force their medieval view of Nature on the rest of us Americans, while simultaneously feeling entitled to the benefits of the very science that they decry.
Professor Bleen does more than just complain. He offers a solution, which I heartily endorse:
With this in mind, here’s my proposal: anyone who lobbies, publicly, in favor of abandoning modern biology, should forfeit all the advantages that modern biology has provided us. It only makes sense.
It makes perfect sense, Professor! It’s time to put a stop to these scientific tapeworms.
August 16th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
An apt solution. One that the rest of us would no doubt find amusing.
January 8th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
These people are fucking weird.
February 12th, 2008 at 12:11 am
You are just sad! Enough said.
February 12th, 2008 at 12:26 am
Shaun:
Would you care to elaborate? Or is your opinion so shallow that you actually can’t explain why you hold it?
February 17th, 2008 at 7:52 am
You are a RUDE person. You should be ashamed of yourself.
February 17th, 2008 at 11:00 am
Pissing off fundies is what I do. I’m glad I ruined your day.
February 21st, 2008 at 6:54 am
One would think one could find intelligent information on the internet…how wrong I am! I would suggest you do a little more research about evolution and creationism before you publicly humiliate yourself.Recommended reading, “The case for a creator” by Lee Strobel,a confessed Atheist turned believer….If you have the courage of your convictions that is.One would hope that all this ranting is backed by some knowledge instead of emotion….don’t you think?
February 21st, 2008 at 8:27 am
Nadine:
Really? You’re suggesting I learn a little more about evolution before publishing an article? Do you have any idea how retarded you are? Evolution is one of my avocations. I understand it better than most people outside of academia. For you to come on here and suggest I don’t understand evolution is beyond brainless. Most creationists have at least two neurons they can rub together. Maybe you could borrow one.
No, I am not going to read your silly book. I have read hundreds — yes, literally hundreds — of separate and distinct arguments for and “proofs” of a creator, both on the internet and in various print publications. Every single one of them has fallen woefully short of non-laughable, let alone plausible or vaguely convincing. If you people actually had any proof of a god, I sincerely doubt you’d keep it hidden in just that one book that few people have ever heard of.
Although emotion gives me the drive to create this site to protect our country from people like you, everything on it is backed by knowledge. Oh, yes, I do think — apparently about a million times more often than you do.
February 21st, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Dang it, Ron. You got to blast Nadine before I did.
Well, there is a point she raises I would like to expound upon. She describes the irritating and creepy Lee Strobel as a former atheist, which makes me wonder about such people. Christians occasionally trot out these ex-heretics to buttress their cause, as if to suggest there is some intellectual credibility to their childish fable, and that the philosophical and logical underpinnings of atheism are weak. My suspicion is that these ex-atheists really never were atheists to begin with, but were only lapsed Christians. I’d love to know the reasons these people give for becoming atheists in the first place. I doubt they’d have anything to do with the problem of evil or free will, or the utter lack of evidence for a god, or the problem of where a god came from in the first place. No, it probably would have a more mundane explanation, like they were “lost”, or they were angry with god about something, and failed to take their frustration to the logical conclusion.
Christians really do not understand atheism, because if they did, they’d become atheists and never look back. I understand Christianity, and I easily recognize it for the sham that it is. For me to adopt the Christian worldview it would literally require a miracle. Perhaps people like Nadine sense on some subconscious level that their vaunted faith will topple like a house of cards the moment some inconvenient fact inhabits her mind, so to spare herself the bother of examining the world in a realistic fashion, she and her ilk make one losing argument after another, embarrassing themselves in defense of a dogma unworthy of defense. People like Strobel claiming to have once been atheists are like grown adults saying they now accept that Santa Claus invades their homes once a year. Yes, its a terrible argument, but that’s just what we’ve come to expect here at the good old Bay, isn’t it?
May 9th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Beautiful. Like you, when I heard about this family, I just had to know more. And I discovered like you, that the whole family is utterly brainwashed. They live on a compound, a freakin’ compound! They just arrested 200 of them in New Mexico. Maybe when they start inbreeding, and Daddy Days become Daddy-on-Daughter Days we’ll actually start to hear the truth.
That said. I don’t wish any ill on the family. Or on the daughters. And the idea of incest is reprehensible and I think ol’ Jim Bob would probably agree. After all, he don’t want to bring on the fire and brimstone either. That said, Lot’s daughters slept with him because they wanted to see his patrolineage continue. So who knows, I wonder how Daddy and Daughters feel when they get to that passage of the bible. I feel all weird inside! Look I’m not above being wrong—maybe they’re all just super-nice people. But…then again…
As far as genes are considered, I think it’s pretty clear that the Duggar family is extremely healthy. Probably the reason they are outcreating the rest of the country. Of course, when the Duggar family meets its arch nemesis, the Duggar pathogen, the whole clan will be wiped out. Still I wonder if she would consent to a paternity test?
Do we know what Daddy Duggar does?
Still, there is something irrepressibly weird about this situation. And I think it needs to be investigated. Moreover, my girlfriend, an evolutionary anthropologist has told me that the physical stress of repeated pregnancy can actually dull a woman’s wits. A brief google search reveals nothing to substantiate that claim. So I’ll move to strike that your honor.
May 9th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Michelle Duggar had wits? If she’d had any wits, she’d have run, screaming, away from a guy with a name like “Jim-Bob” nineteen years ago. By sticking around and letting Jizz-Blob “every sperm is sacred” Duggar treat her as little more than an incubator, the woman is complicit in her own degradation. Yes, maybe she regrets it now — one look at her glassy-eyed, sickly smile makes one wonder — but at this point it’s too late.
As far as what “Daddy” does for a living - need you ask? He’s playing the tax-exempt, “we’re a church” scam for all it’s worth, and no doubt he gets support from the network of like-minded fundie wackos the family is a part of. I’ve heard vague rumors that he’s a realtor, but unless he sells commercial properties on Fifth Avenue, it would be pretty hard to support nineteen people. Pimping his brood on TV probably helps, too.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Ron, Brian, Hammclov, and Sue Blue. I just wanted you to know that you are prayed for today. Jesus died to save us from our sins. May God open your eyes and heart to the truth of Him and His Word.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
Amy
I just wanted you to know that I bought a lottery ticket for you today. If it wins, I’ll send you the money. The odds are 156 million to one. That’s still better than the odds that there is a god.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
Amy, I’m sure that all of them appreciate your concern, but really, if God wanted our eyes ‘open’ wouldn’t He (Oh sexism…back for another round I see) try a little harder? Or do we just not matter?
You obviously have good intentions (I have a Christian friend who told me something similar when I was distressed over my parent’s divorce), but this isn’t what we want. We don’t want to be told that a God cares about us…how about you? How about people like yourself telling us that we are free to atheism, that we are not bad immoral people, that science is not religion and the two were never meant to intermix?
I think that would be a little more appreciated ^^
May 11th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Okay, I love this professor so much, and I wish we really COULD do that. Let the Duggars and their ilk reap the rewards of their completely inane beliefs. Let Michelle go through her pregnancies without prenatal care, go through labor without doctors.
In fairness, I don’t think a lot of these fundies stop to consider the full scope of what they’re saying. They take medicine for granted — it just happens. Doctors exist. They obviously don’t stop to think about where all those medical advancements came from, or what it was that turned this country’s medicine into an actual science.
I recommend the book The Great Influenza by John M. Barry to them as food for thought. It’s about the 1918 flu epidemic, but it also details how medicine in the USA went from quackery to what it is today. Basically, physicians here copied their counterparts in Europe and took God out of the equation. They STUDIED things. They kept their minds open, rather than shutting them and sticking a Bible on top like so much of the rest of society. There’s a line — and I’m paraphrasing here — that’s something like “they were willing to follow the paths of science WHEREVER they might lead”.
It’s possible to be a religious scientist. You just can’t do it if you’re a fundie. My grandfather was a doctor, and an Irish Catholic, and when I asked him once how he could reconcile the two, he said that only idiots and children took the Bible literally, and that God gave people brains so they could use them. Coming from someone of his generation and background, I thought that was pretty damn awesome.
May 11th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Amy, feel free to waste your time on my behalf; it’s no skin off my back. I only wish you would spend it doing tangible good for others…you know, things like actually, physically helping those in need rather than just praying for them. I’m sure the starving, homeless, etc. would appreciate food and shelter far more than prayer. But no…it’s so much easier — and cheaper — just to pray. You can feel like you’re doing something about all the problems in the world without actually having to break a sweat or crack the wallet. So go ahead! Feel good about yourself.
May 11th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
And just what the heck does “Jeeesus died for our sins” have to do with the discussion of the Duggar’s uncontrolled proliferation?
May 12th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Saith Amy: “Jesus died to save us from our sins. May God open your eyes and heart to the truth of Him and His Word.”
Whenever I hear arrogant Christians bragging about their glorious eternity in Heaven, and how smart they were to accept Jesus to get there, I wonder if they’ve ever thought it through. I then immediately realize that no, they almost certainly haven’t thought it through. You see, they confidently tell us that we are all born with a “sin-debt” and that only Jesus’s precious goddamned blood can erase that debt. Those of us who refuse to accept Jesus as our personal savior will be thrown into Hell for all of eternity whether we like it or not. It’s a bit like saying you’re late on your mortgage and are about to be evicted, but you’ve never even bought a house in the first place. In fact, you weren’t even in the market for a house. But the mortgage company just gets its kicks out of fucking you over, especially when it makes no sense at all.
Forgive me if I take umbrage at being saddled with imaginary guilt over the death of an imaginary person who willingly went to said death for the sole purpose of appeasing an imaginary god bent on vengeance for an imaginary crime committed by other imaginary persons. But, please, Amy, by all means, continue with the wishful thinking, because I’m sure it makes you feel better. You’ve read all sorts of horrible, sacrilegious words on this site, and possibly others like it, and you just can’t believe that anyone would reject your crazy-ass religion. Retreat into your bubble, say some magic words to Jesus and pretend you’ll get to live forever. That’s the easy way to deal with reality, isn’t it?
May 12th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
So like, what is prayer? I mean when you get down to it, it’s supposed to be a conversation with God, but usually it just involved people clasping their hands, closing the eyes, bowing their head, and thinking to themselves and wishing for something. But every time I prayed for world peace (a selfless, rather noble prayer, I would think) it never came true. If prayer is so powerful… why? DOH! I almost forgot — not in the plan! Well, then who’s to say your eternal bliss in heaven is “in the plan,” then, Amy?
May 12th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Praying is basically the yellow “Support Our Troops” sticker of the charity world.
May 12th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Yeah, I especially get a kick out of the logic (or lack thereof) that says, this dude died to pay your debt, but — wait! You’re still on the hook unless you take the blame in the first place and accept his payoff on your behalf. Otherwise it’s not really paid. And you’re gonna burn. Sky Daddy’s gonna throw all his bad kids in a lake of fire and watch them scream and writhe for all eternity…why? Because every father gets a kick out of torturing his kids, right? And those members of the damned one’s family that got “saved” get to watch too.
Shit, with friends, relatives, and gods like that, who needs enemies?
May 13th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Sarah,
I’m a Christian. I don’t believe that atheists are going to Hell or that being an atheist automatically makes you immoral. I believe that atheists are free to hold their beliefs just as I am free to hold mine. I don’t believe that religion should trump science or that the Bible should be taken literally. How’s that?
Brian, I’m pretty confident I understand atheists. Some of my friends are atheists and I’m married to a humanist. I’m also pretty confident that God is out there. Call it a hunch, if you want. It’s not a matter for proof or disproof. God is a matter of faith, not a subject of a “case”… I think Lee Strobel missed the point.
May 13th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Elaine: Sorry I wasn’t clear ^^; but I didn’t mean that all Christians think like that…however almost all of my encounters (That being a lot considering I live in red Arizona and in a town mostly composed of old farts with very old ideals which they have then passed on to their children) have been harassment after a failed convert, people telling me I’m a horrible person for no reason whatsoever, people wanting not be nice to me for the sake of being nice, but instead to try and “save” me so that they look good up in heaven or whatever…(All of which just made me slide over from being simply agnostic to full on atheism)
However, it gives me a lot of hope to find the occasional friendly theist ^w^ I think I’ve only encountered them on the internet though…Welcome to Bay of Fundie!
May 13th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
Sarah,
I too consider myself a Christian, yet I do not take the Bible literally, believe in a physical Heaven/Hell, or that a firstborn was sacrificed to appease an angry diety. I usually find myself agreeing with the likes of Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris. I agree w/Elaine re: atheists and agnostics being free to hold their own beliefs like I can. I too feel that there is a source larger than myself, so I haven’t been able to head down the atheist path just yet; maybe I will, maybe I will never head down that path. But there are some friendly Christians who like to learn, and they do exist outside the internet.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Melanie: Oh I know they do, however the internet makes it a lot easier to find them ;P
May 14th, 2008 at 9:59 am
Just as the internet makes it a lot easier for sick bastards to find other sick freaks.
May 14th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
“For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”
May 14th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Bible verse address-John 3:16
May 14th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
Amy,
I fully realize that every keystroke of this comment is a complete waste of my time, but come on. A bible verse? Is that the best you can do? John 3:16 could only be of value to me if I were an NFL field goal kicker and needed a day-glo orange sign to aim at.
Do yourself a favor. Challenge your faith. Read Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins. Put it to a real test. You’ll find yourself in a win/win situation. If your faith survives the withering assault of reason, you will be vindicated. If not, you will have learned something new about our world and, more importantly, yourself.
May 14th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Amen, Brian! Keep on trying — don’t give up. Most of these fundies are too far gone, but you never know when you just might break through the clouds of delusion.
Although I have considered myself an atheist for a couple of decades now, reading Harris, Dawkins, and others really solidified it for me. They gave me concrete answers to those fundies (many in my own family) who simply couldn’t believe that I could “turn my back on God” and insist on trying to win me over with biblical woo and threats of eternal damnation and hellfire.
May 14th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
Amy — don’t bother with the bible verses. I come from a religious family and, regrettably, once wasted nearly two years of my young life studying the bible and reading it from cover to cover. There’s nothing you can quote that I haven’t read before. It didn’t impress me then, and it doesn’t now. So spare me the platitudes and engage in real debate about the state of reality, or truck on over to the Duggar’s website. They are a regular gold mine of religiosity.
May 14th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Brian-I have read Carl Sager, Richard Dawkins, Steven Pinker, Charles Singer, Victor Stenger, and Kenneth Miller. I have not read anything from Sam Harris. I will have to check him out. These men articulate the vast complexities of human biology and countless other areas of science. The more they reveal these incredible complexities, the harder it is for me to believe that life, nature, science itself, occurs accidentially and for no purpose. This is one explanation of why I believe in God. I don’t desire to offend you or argue my point. I’m just sharing. I want to share God’s Word and pray that God reveals truth. I don’t think your words are a waste of your time. I’m listening. I appreciate what you have to say, even if I don’t agree with you completely.
Sue Blue-I’m not trying to offend you. It seams that I am. I apologize. I’m not quite sure what you mean by “debating the state of reality”. If you want to explain further, I’ll listen, but I fear that it would be difficult to have a debate on reality. Yours seems to be defined by worldly knowledge (considering your words about Harris and Dawkins) and mine by faith in God. I just want to share God’s Word with you and pray that (this time) He reveals His truth to your heart.
May 14th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Amy, that’s like saying “what is the purpose of stars”. Life does not need a set purpose and nor does it have one.
Going back to my star example: they don’t really have a purpose now do they?…And yet even without a “planned” purpose, they are doing something aren’t they? They are providing heat, light, and energy around the universe. That’s about the closest answer you will ever get to a purpose.
Personally, I like life without a purpose. It gives it more meaning in the sense that it can expand. It is not bound by a destiny or fate that’s rigid and flat. It’s creative and ever changing, ours to make of it what WE wish.
May 14th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Sarah-I just wanted to say that I believe you are free to choose atheism, I don’t think you are bad, immoral people…(any more than anyone else, including all believers),and I agree that science is not a religion. I just want to share God’s Word and pray that He reveals truth. You suggested that you don’t matter to God because He hasn’t tried very hard. Let me suggest that He is fighting for you (even through this website) and through all who earnestly share His truth with you. God has given you the free will to choose His truth or the worlds’ truth. He is not rejecting you, you are rejecting Him. 2 Chronicles 15:2 says, “…if you seek Him, He will be found by you…” I know you said that you didn’t want to hear that “God cares” that you would rather hear “people like me” say they care and let you believe what you want. I am simply sharing God’s Word and praying that He reveals His truth. I hope you will know that I am a “friendly Christian”. I may not believe everthing that you believe, but my intentions are good, like you said, and I wouldn’t share the gospel of salvation if I didn’t care.
May 14th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
Sarah-I’m not sure I understand. How can you realize that the stars provide heat, light, and energy and also say they have no purpose? Also, I do not begrudge you your creativity in your everday life, I just want to share God’s word with you and pray that He reveals His truth.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:12 am
Sue Blue-I’m not sure how you could assume that I don’t help people in need in other “tangible” ways besides praying. (which I believe is tangible) God’s Word calls us to serve the needs of others.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:19 am
Parrotlover77-God does not promise “world peace”, (not that He can’t deliver) but He does promise eternal life for those who believe in Him and accept Jesus’ gift of salvation.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:22 am
They don’t/ If you think about it, the only reason they exist is because the materials that make them up are present. There is no set purpose (and there really shouldn’t be) but just because it isn’t doing what it is ’supposed’ to do (or basically, have a purpose) doesn’t mean that it isn’t doing anything at all.
I think you misunderstood me, the second part of my argument is based off the idea of a set purpose in life. A destiny to fulfill, etc, etc.
What I meant is that there should be no destiny, no one truth, no single answer, no one reason to live your life by. Having a purpose is basically saying that you were made for this reason and this reason alone. Think of it like characters in a story book. As one of my least favorite authors ever once said, “Characters are born of necessity”
Every writer worth their salt knows this is bullshit.
Authors like the mentioned above create their characters to fill in a certain area for their story. Their characters are hardly born as they are perfectly manufactured to fit whatever the author wants them to and they go no further in the story than the plot requires. This is why his characters are flat, unlikeable, and boring. These are not real people.
That is what a purpose is at the very bottom of the definition.
And once that ‘purpose’ has been completed…what next? What’s the point after that? Does life lose all meaning after you’ve done what you were made to do? Seriously, that just makes no sense.
May 15th, 2008 at 5:08 am
“..the heavens declare the glory of God..”…read that passage,because THAT is the purpose of the stars and universe.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:42 am
Hey Amy, I left a cup of coffee on the radiator.I left for vacation, and when I came back, there was mold growing.That must mean that the radiator was meant for the mold.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:50 am
Amy and S. : Why should we assume any single religious text is correct. All could be wrong, and yours could be the false one. How about this: Disprove every other religion and prove Christianity to rule out the possobility of an ‘unknown’ religion.
Let the onslaught begin.
May 15th, 2008 at 7:37 am
Amy - You can’t have it both ways. Either “prayer works” OR “God doesn’t promise world peace.” Which is it? By your last assertion, you are saying prayer does not work.
May 15th, 2008 at 7:48 am
Sarah - Yea, I think Amy is getting confused on your verbiage. “Purpose” in this context is a relative term. The sun has a very big purpose for me. For the little green men in the Andromeda galaxy - not so much! When you described your meaning using the term fate, it made a lot more sense.
Amy - Believing that “there is something more” is a natural human thought. That’s outside the realm of science because it’s unmeasurable. Personally, I would like to think there is a “reason” so-to-speak for the universe (not in standard religious human-centric sense, but more in a general sense of why does existence exist at all), but I’m equally open to a completely random explanation, even if it’s not as grand or romantic. Maybe some super smart aliens are playing universe marbles and we’re a completely unnoticed side effect. Or maybe we’re just the dream of dolphins. Point is, there is zero evidence that human existence itself is the point of the universe. In fact, the contrary is looking more likely every day. The drive for wanting a higher purpose is, unfortuantely, what leads many like yourself down the road you’ve taken. Not to belittle you, but you stated that you wanted a higher purpose and therefore chose the bible. Why not Buddhism? Why not Wicca? What’s so special about Christianity? Why not make up your own religion? Why not borrow pieces from all religions? Why believe an ancient book written hundreds of years after the events supposedly took place, with very little evidence to support the protagonist ever existed, let alone was divine?
May 15th, 2008 at 8:33 am
Parrotlover77-I can only speak personally and cannot begin to “prove” faith. I have personally experienced the power of prayer. I could share specifically, but I cannot “prove” that it was divine. I am not saying that God has given me everthing I have asked for, but I believe that He hears my words and considers my thoughts and requests. I do not have the veiw that God is my personal “genie”. I believe that His wisdom is greater than mine and ultimately choose to surrender to His will. Again, it is not my desire to argue or debate. I was only answering your question concerning my confidence in my salvation. My salvation is promised in God’s Word, but world peace isn’t (promised). I will answer your questions to the best of my ablility, but my intention is to share God’s Word and pray that He reveals His truth to you.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:59 am
S. and Sarah-Psalm 19:1-4 says, “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” I believe the heavens do declare God’s glory and proclaim the work of His hands. I just didn’t understand what Sarah meant when she said that stars provide a service, (in her opinion, only heat, light, energy) and also believe they have no purpose. I now understand that she believes the stars have no “divine” purpose.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:30 am
Parrotlover77-Yikes! I’m having trouble keeping up! I read what I’ve written so far, and don’t think I said “I wanted a higher purpose, therefore I chose the Bible”. I believe that someone shared the gift of salvation with me, I prayed and asked God to reveal His truth to me and He did. He chose, I accepted. This is what I believe, but I can’t prove it in a way that would satisfy you Also, I don’t think “Christianity is special”. I believe God’s Word to be truth. This makes it impossible for me to make up my own, or borrow from other religions to suit me. This does not mean I think others are not free to choose for themselves. God gave you the free will to believe in aliens, dolphins, or nothing. I do wonder why you are open to so many possibilities EXCEPT God. (honest and friendly question
) Also, why do YOU think it is natural for humans to believe (natural human thought) that there is “something more out there”? (again, honest and friendly question 
)
May 15th, 2008 at 9:44 am
” I believe God’s word to be truth”.
Just curious which version of “God’s ” word would that be? I assume you read a specific version of the bible, one that is based on translations of text written originally in another language and therefore most likely at least partially flawed.
Do you believe that everything in the bible, both old and new testament is to be taken as literal word from “God”?
May 15th, 2008 at 9:46 am
Daniel-If we just die and become nothing, then I guess I’m wasting my time having faith in God. If that’s true, then the joke will be on me, but you won’t be there to laugh and I won’t be there to hear you laughing. So I guess it doesn’t matter. I realize that I’m assuming you believe there is nothing after we die. You didn’t specifically say that. I just read between the lines. If I misunderstood, my apologies. I can’t prove my faith.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:53 am
Barbara-I have read different translations of the Bible. I believe that the goals of new translations is to provide people with an accurate, readable Bible in contemporary english (or whatever language it is translated) In the Introduction of the Holman Christian Standard Bible it says “Bible translation is both a science and an art. It is a bridge that brings God’s word from the ancient world to the world today. It requires a dependence on God to accomplish the sacred task.” II Timothy 3:16 says, “All scripture is God breathed”. I believe “all” means updated translations. I do not mean to say the updated SCRIPTURE changes, just the language style. Let me explain. I will use Colossians 1:16 as an example.
“For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him.” (King James version)
“For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him.” (New International version)
“because by Him everything was created, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
“For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, everthing got started in Him and finds its purpose in Him.” (The Message)
I could go on with other versions, but I think you see my point. The language style is different, but the meaning is the same. I also read a Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek Key Word Study Bible. This provides the vocabulary and syntax of the original languages.
Concerning your question, “Do you believe that everything in the Bible, both old and new testament is to be taken as literal word from “God”. If I am understanding your question right, then yes. I believe “all scripture is God breathed (inspired). I believe He is the author. I’m not sure if that is what you meant or if you are asking me about literal and figurative interpretation. Let me know.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Sarah-I’m curious to why you think people who believe in God and His purposes have a fate that is rigid and flat? I’m not sure what you mean by this, or if that is what you are implying. Will you explain a little further?
May 15th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Amy-It is complicated, but I believe that when a person dies, they exist in memories, the mark they left on the world, and in time.
Oh, and I asked you “What makes your belief and message distinguishable from the thousands of others”.
May 15th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Daniel-I don’t know everything about the”thousands of other messages”, but so far I have not come across another religion that shares the message of salvation solely through Jesus Christ. I’m sorry I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking for proof. I would have to use scripture to “prove” a faith in Christ alone or to “disprove” other religions. This wouldn’t “prove” anything to someone who does not believe the Bible is truth.
May 15th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Melanie, Elaine, you guys are awesome and (where I am, at least) all too rare.
May 15th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Daniel-I should also mention that I do not desire to offend you or tell you what to believe. My intention is to share God’s Word and pray that He opens your heart to His truth. I am also interested in what other people think about such issues and desire to answer questions (if I can) and ask a few of my own. I don’t think we can debate “reality” as Sue Blue said, because our definitions of reality differ so greatly. I would hope others would be open to the discussion too. If not, OK.
May 15th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
I’m not going to debate,but getting back to the subject at hand,don’t forget that God can create a crisis in order to get the Duggar’s attention and to help them to grow.If that happens,in my opinion,that crisis will be a crisis with one or more of the kids rebelling,or Michelle’s health during pregnancy and/or the baby’s health.
In order to prevent this,Jim Bob needs to start thinking about his wife’s health,his future children’s health,and his children’s education and their place in the world.Often times people with Michelle’s “we are the chosen ones” attitude will be knocked down a few levels by God to humbleness.Having such an arrogant attitude towards adopted children isn’t favored by God,and if a crisis happens that brings them to their knees,then don’t think that it’s gong to be impossible to someday hear Jim Bob spouting off against Bill Gothard’s beliefs.If pregnancy hurt or killed her,I suspect he would come to have a very different attitude.Don’t think it’s impossible.That is exactly what god could choose to do.
May 15th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
S.—
It’s a nice thought, but I have an unfortunate feeling good ol’ Jim-Bob is so puffed up on his own self-righteousness that he’d just declare Michelle’s death “the will of God” and try to find a new model. While I have no doubt they both truly do believe in what they’re doing, it remains at its root an act of ego. I’ve seen it more than I’d like to — people (and not just Christians) who are so proud of how “good” and “righteous” they are. It’s just like a little child showing off, going, “Look at me, I’m so SPECIAL.” Pardon the expression, but Jim-Bob strikes me as the kind of guy who’s convinced his sh*t doesn’t stink. He’s a MAN, and therefore somehow better than everyone else.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Amy — When all other arguments fail, the one the religious always seem to resort to is the old “what happens when you die” line. To which I always answer — “nothing”. They can’t seem to understand that the thought of nonexistence doesn’t scare me into god’s waiting arms. It will be the same (to me) after I die as it was before I was born. The world will go on.
Aside from all the questions about the credibility of the bible and the existence of a god, or any gods, it seems to me that the death issue is the area where “faith” breaks down. In 2005, my twenty-five-year-old son was murdered (And no, I’m not an atheist because I’m angry at God for allowing this to happen. I was an nonbeliever for many years prior). My christian fundamentalist relatives were just as shattered by his death as I was, and it occurred to me, even in my grief, to wonder why. If they truly believed he was “in heaven” and that they would shortly be seeing him again, then why grieve? Shouldn’t christians rejoice in the dead loved one’s escape from this sin-benighted planet? If you believe you’re going to heaven, then you should welcome death. You should be glad — maybe even a little envious — when one of your loved ones has the the privilege of shedding his corporeal shell. But they’re not. They’re right there, crying their eyes out, screaming why?
It is my conviction that religious faith cheapens life. Religious faith teaches that the wrongs and injustices of the world will be redressed by God at some future date, so why bother to do anything about it ourselves? This kind of thinking underlies the current fundie resistance to such issues as global warming. Who cares if we destroy the planet — God made it for us to use as we see fit, and he’s going to come and make everything all right again anyway. How much more precious is life when you believe it is your one and only life. How much more precious is all life when you feel the profound depth and breadth of it on earth, and how related we are, in the very molecular depths of our bodies to all of it. I am not dust, I am life four billion years in the making. For me, that truth is far more moving than Bronze Age myths. I have lived, I am living, and my immortality will be the mark I make with this one life.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Sue,
I’m really sorry you had to lose your son — I can’t even imagine what that must have been like. I have to say that you’ve just given the most eloquent and sensible explanations of your convictions I’ve heard from anyone, religious or atheist. I have my own thoughts as to what happens after death that have probably never been shared by anyone anywhere ever, but I don’t think I have it in me to explain it, and certainly not like you’ve just done.
I’ve got the same problem you do with regard to any religion that says all will be better after death, so what happens on Earth doesn’t matter; it’s just a handy excuse for taking no responsibility for anything that happens to you in your life, or anything you do. “Will of God” is just a blanket excuse for Christians who don’t want to face the idea that something could actually be their fault.
I’ve wondered that before, too — why some Christians grieve as they do. It’s heartbreaking to lose a loved one no matter what you believe, but you would think some of these Holy Joes would be more resigned to it. I’ve known Christians who were shattered by it, and some who took it in stride, and I have to admit I don’t understand either. The ones who broke because of it obviously didn’t have enough conviction behind their faith, and the ones that didn’t break have a strength of belief in their holy fairy tale that I can’t understand, either. Part of me can’t help but admire the latter, in a way, even though it boggles me; it takes a lot of will to have that much faith, and it’s just unfortunate that they’ve chosen to place all that energy and effort where they have.
I think that a lot of Christians crave certainty, and not just in terms of life after death. They want a guidebook, basically — a manual to life that will tell them what to do when they’re not sure, and eventually to tell them how to die and what to expect when it happens. They want to know what comes after death, and believing can occasionally be the next best thing to knowing, apparently. Myself, I don’t have a problem with wondering — obviously everybody finds out someday, and I’ve got a few theories. In the case of the weepy-eyed Christians, I would say that they use their faith as a kind of baby blanket, something to make up for whatever strength they themselves don’t have.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
“Sarah-I’m curious to why you think people who believe in God and His purposes have a fate that is rigid and flat? I’m not sure what you mean by this, or if that is what you are implying. Will you explain a little further?”-Amy
I thought that my story-book analogy would be a good enough explanation, but I guess not. Ok…
It is because to have a purpose or fate, what other point is there to have any potential or meaning for anything outside of that purpose? If a purpose is so broad as you claim it is, then what is the point of having one at all? It doesn’t make sense.
Parrot: That’s what I consider a purpose really…because in the end, a reason is just another cause which must be worked towards. I consider it fate (Which I’ve never believed in…especially because I love coincidence ^w^ but that’s just my opinion)
Sue: I know that this probably doesn’t mean much, and that saying things like this is really in a sense meaningless (I know it made me feel even worse when people told me “I’m sorry for your loss” after my grandfather passed away) but…I wish you happiness.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Sue Blue-First of all, I am truly sorry to hear of the death of your son. I extend my heartfelt condolences.
I’m not sure what arguements you are talking about. (the arguements that failed) Also, I didn’t use the “what do you believe happens when you die?” line. Daniel offered his belief.
I understand fully that the thought of “nothingness” after death doesn’t scare you.
I can only speak for myself, not your relatives, but I don’t understand why you think believing in eternal life means I shouldn’t be sad when someone I love dies. My grandmother, who raised me and was my best friend, died three years ago. I was, and still am, devastated by the loss. Even though I know I will see her again someday, (she believed and accepted Christ as her savior) I still miss her and I still need her. That doesn’t go away. Having said that, there is also a part of me that is happy for her because I do believe her to be in a “better place”, if you will.
If she would have been murdered, I would have asked God, “Why?” I think it’s OK to cry out to God for anwers.
I’m not sure who you’ve been talking to. I’ve never heard a believer say, “Who cares if we destroy the planet?” I believe God created the planet, that He calls us to be good stewards of it, AND to love and serve others.
I’m not sure what you mean when you say, “you feel the profound depth and breadth of your life on earth, and how related you are in the very molecular depths of your body to it. You are life four billion years in the making.” You go on to say, “You have lived, you are living, and your immortality will be the mark you make with this one life.” I thought you believed you were “nothing” after you die. I then assume that you believe you were “nothing” before you were born.
Also, where did you get the four billion number? Your belief may be more “moving” to you, but I fear you’re trading a “nice” ideology for truth. Again, this is my opinion, my belief. I also believe you are free to choose for yourself. I’m not trying to bully my belief onto you. I’m just trying to clear up some misconceptions. To respond to you and ask questions, not to be contentious. Please know this.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Sarah- I’m sorry, I’m still not following you. I don’t think I’ve mentioned what I think my purpose is.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Sharley,you could very well be right,I won’t disagree.My guess is he’d go for a younger model in that case.Someone who would have many more years of fertility left.
On being a man,I wonder if he won’t allow any of the kids to have anything other than a J name,like his.Either that or they’re doing it because of Jesus’ name starting with a J.But my guess is it’s himself.(Mr ego).
May 16th, 2008 at 10:02 am
Too bad, you brought it up.
So if you defer to his infinite wisdom, why pray in the first place? Won’t the “plan” play out as his divine will designed in the same way with or without your requests for assistance?
May 16th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Amy — the bible is circular logic. (e.g., the bible is the word of god because god says so in the bible.) Quote-mining the bible does not impress me. Tangible facts do.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:11 am
Amy — I am as open to other religions as I am Christianity (i.e., not open unless it stands to scientific scrutiny OR something truly supernatural occurs that defies the laws of the universe). I was merely pointing out a logical fallacy in your argument. It was not a statement of my preference for other religions over Christianity.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:13 am
Pascal’s Wager. Another logical fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager#Criticisms
You sure you got the right god? There are thousands to choose from. Most of which give you damnation if you are worshipping the wrong one…
May 16th, 2008 at 10:16 am
While you, yourself, may not hold it to be true, many Christians believe in pre-destination. Additionally, the whole concept of “God’s plan” aligns closely with that of the concept of “fate.” As in, what will happen is already determined and we are just puppets. Yadda, yadda. Free will is popular with some Christians too, but the bible straddles the fence.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:18 am
…My intention is to share God’s Word and pray that He opens your heart to His truth…
Another example of a prayer not working so much…
May 16th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Sue — Sorry to hear about your son. I lost my wife when I was 27 (and she 26). It didn’t drive me to my lack of faith either; I’ve always had it. I consider myself more agnostic than atheist, though. Her parents were/are major fundies and obviously they grieved at the loss. And I had that very same thought. Of course I’m sad because I knew I’ll never see her again, but why are they sad when they simultaneously say that they KNOW for a FACT they will see her again someday soon. At worst this is just a temporary absence for them. Like living in a different country for a while. Besides, my wife/their daughter had a lot of medical problems and was in a lot of chronic pain, so that should come as a comfort to them that she’s now in eternal bliss. It’s a strange situation where one’s faith collides head-on with reality. They may not even consciously realize it. Some part of their subconscious knows, though, because they are sad, like all humans in that situation. It is very peculiar. Anyway, shhhh, don’t tell them I’m not christian because it would break their heart.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:32 am
Pay more attention to the fundies. That’s a popular line I hear quite often.
May 16th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
Whatever happens,it’s going to be interesting to see in the next several years to come,how this all plays out.I have a feeling the tv specials will come to an end as things start going askew.Christian or no,they’re not giving a darn about Michelle’s health,their kids’ education,or even letting their kids be kids,(at least the girls,anyway).Not to mention they totally don’t give a hoot about the rest of the world.If they did,they’d adopt.I don’t know what God they’re praying to,but it’s certainly not one I’d ever consider as being real.I don’t know how anybody can be dumb enough to believe that Bill Gothard nonsense!
May 16th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Thanks for your support, Parrotlover77. I’m so sorry to hear about your wife. You were so young to go through that. I know my son’s wife was, and still is, almost totally incapacitated from the devastation of his death. My little granddaughter still suffers nightmares. They are Catholic, and their priest has actually been a great help to them, not because he offers platitudes from the Bible, but because he goes out of his way to see that my daughter-in-law and granddaughter get the material help and counseling that they need to survive. So, I have to concede that, just like most atheists are not evil, not all religious people are twisted fundies. I hope you have found support as well.
I see we’ve still got Amy offering her two bits here. While I believe that most folks that say they’ll pray for me are generally goodhearted if misguided, it’s painfully obvious that everything I said rolled right off like water off a duck’s back. I guess it’s just a waste of time to try to point out when and why their logic breaks down, since they see everything through God-colored glasses.
Getting back to the Duggars, my point in bringing up all the other stuff was to make the case that fundie attitudes toward death, personal freedom, the rights of women, and environmental concerns can be summed up in the idea that god is in control and will make everything okay in the end. I really don’t care how Michelle wears her hair or whether the names of all their spawn start with the letter “J”. What really chaps my ass is that their uncontrolled breeding speaks to their complete belief that God has invested humans with special rights that supersede those of all other life on earth, so they don’t have to care about overpopulation, food shortages, gas prices, global warming or anything else, because God’s got their backs. Another core belief seems to be that reason and intelligence are tricks of Satan. Using our own brains opens us up to evil influence somehow. This just seem a little too convenient, doesn’t it? Early church founders knew the threat that knowledge represented — that’s why it was illegal for commoners in Europe to own a copy of the Bible. If they could read it for themselves, they might be able to figure out what a load of crock it was!
The arrogant attitude of these fundies, with their blind hatred of science (but none of them are throwing out their cell phones or computers or HD TVs) seems to me to smack of desperation. Science and technology move forward at an ever faster rate, leaving fewer and fewer mysteries to be ascribed to God, and somewhere in their tiny little hearts, they know they are being backed into the last corner.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
S—
I’m with you on guessing Jim-Bob would go for a younger woman if Michelle died, and I would bet the kids’ initials do come from his name, not Jesus. (I think anyone who gives all their kids the same initial is freaking weird, no matter what the reason, but in this case it, like everything else, is just so much worse.)
I don’t consider the Duggars to actually be religious. A lot of my stepfamily are, and they’re people I respect very deeply even if I don’t share their beliefs. They’re not like the Duggars, who sit there and (very loudly) go “Look at us, we’re so good and righteous and special, you should ALL want to be us.” People like that aren’t into it for the sake of it, they want everyone to know how good they are and, by association, how bad everyone else is.
I’ve spoken to a couple of my religious family members about why they hate people like the Duggars and the Jerry Falwells of the world. All of them have said that A.) people like that make the rest of them look bad, but B.) it offends them on a personal level. They realize that all kinds of people out there will use religion to further their own goals, whatever those goals may be, but where that drove me away from religion it just pisses my relatives off. Even the ones who aren’t strict in their faith, like my stepfather (who was raised Catholic, but who makes it to church for Christmas about once every five years) consider the fundies as a whole a type of sacrelige.
I will admit that I have to make a conscious effort not to automatically judge someone if I find out they’re Christian. It’s a terrible kind of prejudice, and it comes directly from my own experiences with fundies. 99% of the Christians I know are good, kind, nonjudgmental people, but that 1% left a bad taste in my metaphorical mouth that I’m still working to get rid of. They do their alleged faith more harm than good, but of course they’d never see it that way. To them, anyone who doesn’t automatically fall in line and join the fundie-train is just an unrepentant sinner who’s destined for hell, and who must be harangued within an inch of their life in the hope that they’ll crack.
My great-uncle, who passed away last year, was a devout Mormon, and was also one of the most admirable people I’ve ever known. He didn’t judge my family for not being Mormon, nor did he even say “Oh, I’m praying for you.” He just did his thing, and let us do ours, and was a kind and caring person who would do almost anything for anyone, whoever they might be. There’s no way in hell I could ever buy into Mormonism, but if there was, the way he lived his life with his faith would be a lot more compelling a reason to join it than any amount of preaching and browbeating. I don’t know what happens after we die, but whatever happens I hope he wound up somewhere good. I’ll hazard a bet that when the Duggars go, they’re going to be in for a nasty shock, no matter what happens — if they do come face-to-face with some kind of higher power, they’re probably going to get handed a laundry list of all the things they’ve f***ed up. I kind of wish there was some sort of God who could look at them and go “Religion: You Did It Wrong.”
May 16th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Amy — the “four billion years” I referred to is the time when the earth, about half a billion years after it coalesced into a molten ball orbiting the sun, finally cooled off enough for the first quasi-living organisms (possibly viruses — “simple” RNA molecules in a protein envelope) to form from the chemical precursors of life. I don’t know why some people find evolution “insulting”. I think it’s because they have never truly studied it and have a very limited concept of what it means, as evidenced by statements like “if humans came from apes, why aren’t any apes changing into humans today” and other idiotic drivel. To me, it is insulting to be asked to believe that some sky fairy scooped up a handful of dirt and formed humans — or worse, since I’m a woman — that I was formed from a man’s rib (women don’t even merit a handful of dirt). Knowing that I am a link in a chain extending unbroken back through the depths of time to that very first single cell is to me inspiring and moving. Knowing that I am really and truly related to every life form on this planet (we share 60% of our DNA with oak trees, for instance) gives me a greater appreciation for it. I am not superior to other life — I am a part of it. So who is the better steward — the one who thinks “what the hell — God’s gonna fix it up anyway” or the one who is absolutely certain that this is our one and only home?
May 16th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
To address the “immortality” statement — I was not implying in any way that I believe in an afterlife. I was quite clear on that. My intent was to show that atheists such as myself find meaning in our lives, not our death. Death is the end. If we want to be remembered, we can make enough of an impression during our lives that others will carry our legacy on. For instance, Mozart “lives” on in his music. In that sense, he is “immortal”.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Sarah — thank you for your thoughts. Loss is something we’ve all experienced — but somehow I’m always more comforted by those who, like you, don’t express their condolences with religious platitudes. My religious relatives went into “prayers n’ platitudes” overdrive after my son’s death. The platitudes were annoying and the prayers had no discernible effect whatsoever, but they never missed a chance to try to impress upon me the need to “turn to God and be comforted” and to “open my heart to God” so that I would be “saved” and thus see my son again. This was the worst thing — that they would use this tragedy, the worst any parent can experience — as a proselytizing opportunity. That they would hold me hostage to my grief. To them, nothing is more important — not love of family or compassion for the grieving — than giving up your willpower and life to God. Maybe I’m ranting, but I can’t express enough how harmful I have found religion to be.
Looking at the glassy-eyed stares of people like the Duggars, hearing the way they never express an original thought but only parrot their dogma, makes me certain they don’t know the meaning of the word “compassion”.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
I like to thank Parrotlover, Sharley, Sarah, and others who have read my rants and responded to my grief. It is appreciated. I only wish I could get through to some others and get them to really think about what their beliefs ultimately mean. I can’t claim to have all the answers, but I am certain that we are each responsible for our own lives. Sharley has expressed this perfectly in the post above. I would like to think that I have the spine to face life and its responsibilities without the security blanket of religion.
May 16th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
Sue Blue-Thank you for your response. I was confused about what you meant. Thank you for explaining.
Everyone-I have been sincere in asking these questions. I really am curious, interested, and willing to listen. I know that I have WORN OUT MY WELCOME! I accidently wandered onto this site last week. I have to say that I have not experienced very much warmth OR welcome. I didn’t think offering my prayers would cause such an uproar. (If you don’t believe, then what harm could it do?) I understand now that it offends most all of you here at the Bay. For that, I apologize. As for the questions and offering my “two bits”, I assumed intellectuals welcomed discussion and an opportunity to share all they have learned. I know a few of you did share, but most of your words were steeped in anger and sarcasm. I’m a little surprised that a group who believes “this is it!” would spend there precious time on earth hating and criticizing Christians. Is this really the mark you are wanting to leave? Bashing “ignorant people who believe in fairy tales”? I’m also surprised to find out how little you know about Christians (someone who believes in salvation through Jesus Christ). The “fundies” you talk about don’t even come close to who I am. I have tried to educate myself in other areas of belief. I’ve read a lot. It would have been nice to talk to you and get it “straight from the horses mouth”, so to speak. I guess the only people welcome here are those who think, act, and believe like you. I do appreciate what you have shared and you have certainly left an impression on me. Even though I don’t agree with you completely, I still wish you the best. Take care.
May 17th, 2008 at 12:11 am
Amy, what is there not to get? I’ve explained my reasoning about four times now and Parrotlover even outlined it further. What is it you are not understanding?
And try to see it from their view: We’ve all been hurt in some way by religion. I remember that my first real religious experience was a fight during middle school between a sexist young fundie and myself in history class. He was angry because the Jews were talked about in class more than the Christians and when I tried to explain to him that the Jews were around a lot longer than them, he went nuts and started arguing with me over it for the next two class periods. The very next year, I was cornered by two of my closest friends (who were also fundie) and was basically beaten into a corner (Because for one, I didn’t know how to debate yet, and two, I didn’t know what the hell was happening).
Ever since then, I have been battling with religion because, while raised agnostic, I was always taught to use logic and reasoning to figure things out; i.e connect the dots…and the dots never pointed to a God, but whenever I tried to explain it and speak out, I was shushed, bullied, and screamed at until I backed off. I was also a pretty ignorant kid and I didn’t really understand religion at the time because I had never really encountered it…it always just seemed like a club that everyone else was in save for my immediate family.
Think about it like this, Amy: I was a kid who was being yelled at and didn’t understand why…and it really hurt. Adults, friends, family (Extended family are either Catholic or Orthodox Jews) were all telling me that I was wrong (Not saying why, but that I was) and that I should shut up and never question their beliefs.
Of course what made it all worse was that what they said went against everything I was taught in science class…I swear that was probably one of the most confusing parts of my short life. I mean seriously, when you have one side telling you one thing (but offering evidence to back it up) and then another side (with whom you have personal relations with) telling you that only parts of the evidence-supported arguments are correct (the ones that don’t interfere with their religion)…let’s just say for me it was not a fun life lesson.
Amy, when people have bad experiences with something it’s REALLY hard for them to be open minded about it. Tell me, would you ask an African American or a Native to just forget the years of slavery and slaughter? Why would you ever expect someone to just “forget” what hurt them and move on? Sure, not all Christians are fundies and not all whites are horrible racist red-necks…however the memories are still there and they are painful. Acceptance is one thing; forgetting is another. We are not perfect because we are human, we hold grudges and we make stereotypes and I’m pretty sure that you made some about us yourself during your stay here at BoF. You might not want to talk to any atheists for a while because it probably did hurt and you are wondering why you have been judged like this…it’s a cycle of hatred really (And it’s never easy getting back out of the rut…still we are all trying little by little…everyone in the world is…ok that was a lie ^^; not everyone, but a lot)
As for your comments, you have failed in all areas to provide actual proof for your arguments, nor have you really asked questions…you’ve just repeated over and over “I don’t get it” and have forced us to rehash our statements (which gets pretty tedious). If you really want to give BoF another go, I say that you cut the crap and just give a straight-forward opinion and a reasoning to back it up. Seriously, it’s ok to like Jesus or God; plenty of Christians have openly admitted their beliefs and have been perfectly accepted into the entourage…however the way you went about it was pretty offensive to many people and that is why you got the back-lashing you did.
May 17th, 2008 at 2:44 am
Sarah-These are my last comments, I promise. I gave many straight forward opinions and statements of faith…I believe Bible is truth, I believe God created the world, I believe that “God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life”, I believe in prayer, I believe “The heavens declare God’s glory”, I believe that the works and science of people like Richard Dawkins (complexity of human biology,etc.) suggest, not with intention, a creator, I believe the different translations of the Bible display different language styles but not different meanings, I believe I am called to love and serve others, I believe I am called to be a good steward of the world God created…should I go on? Have I “PROVED”, to your satisfaction, that I openly admitted my beliefs? I have also stated that I CANNOT PROVE MY FAITH…it’s faith. I have also said that I believe God gives us free will to choose His salvation or not. I understand, now, that offering prayer offended you, I apologized. I would think you could cut me some slack. I withstood some pretty harsh comments before calling it quits. Anyway, I still don’t understand why “stupid people” with “fairy tale beliefs” have such a big impact on you. If “Fundies/Christians” are all morons, then why waste the little time you have on earth holding on to what they have “said and done” to you. It seems it is only making you bitter-something that only affects YOUR life, not theirs. Why waste your precious time hashing out what you think the Duggars have the right to do, or give your opinions on them at all. They are going to believe what they believe regardless of what you write on this site. I doubt they will ever click on to a site titled, “The Duggars-Parasites of Science”, and if they do, I don’t think your cruel opinions and harsh judgements would cause them to drop their beliefs and consider what you call “reason”. It’s not “changing the world” or “leaving your mark” or “contributing to science” if you’re only willing to speak genuinely to athiests’ and people of YOUR ilk. You could have really talked to me. I need to go. I have already said too much. I’m tired and I’m speaking in haste. My daughters are in a dance recital tomorrow. (I have four children, is that an appropriate number in your judgement?) W. and A. have been practicing all year and I want to be sure I’m rested. They need a “fresh” mommy to lead them through their rigid and flat lives.
May 17th, 2008 at 3:00 am
Sarah-ONE more…You, nor anyone else, said anything to me that “proved” God doesn’t exist. Double standard?
May 17th, 2008 at 3:09 am
Sarah-Wow! I just can’t quit. I just wanted to clarify that my long rant wasn’t directed at only you. I don’t remember any comments from you concerning the Duggars.
May 17th, 2008 at 10:56 am
Sharley,I agree with the others,that was a great post! And yes,I do believe the Dug’s use religion to further their own agenda.I won’t profess to know what’s in their hearts, I can only say that what I outwardly see are 2 parents looking for any excuse in the book to keep having baby after baby,as if it is a race to see how many they can produce! I also don’t see them letting their kids reach their highest potential,by ensuring they get a good education.I see the Dug’s trying to write the script for their whole lives,in part by denying them a decent education in the name of religion and homeschooling,and while that might have been feasible in the little house on the prairie days,in a modern world it just isn’t very likely to work.The girls seem to be taught that nothing else is important except having babies,serving men and doing housework.It’s just really sad.I hope they can break free of that someday,and get to see what life is really all about.
As for Michelle,she seems far too controlling,and I suspect it’s going to backfire on her.(Actually,both parents do).I get the feeling they expect their kids to all get married to another from a quiver family,have each build a house on part of those 20+ acres,(so they can all be near the compound,lol),and start pumping out baby after baby.While that might seem to Michelle to be a very down to earth thing to do,I seriously doubt that’s going to happen ! And so I suspect we’ll be hearing from them in the future about how they’re living their lives wrong,and not serving the Lord.Gag.
If there as one thing I would say to Michelle,(or both of them,really),it is that you are setting yourselves up for a huge case of rebellion by your children in the future,by being so controlling.
May 17th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Amy: When have I ever said in my comments that I hate all religions or that I hate people who believe in “fairy tales”? Please do not put words into my mouth, thank you very much!
And for disproving God, there has never been one shred of evidence that points towards a higher power; not even a hint. No it’s not a solid fact, but still, why should I believe in something for which there is nothing at ALL in scientific history that points towards its existence? Back in the day, people didn’t have microscopes, but we still had EVIDENCE for the germs that we couldn’t see such as diseases and plagues. They left behind a long trail of existence even at the microscopic level!
As for what I meant by proving your faith, I meant say WHY you believe in these things. I am interested in why you believe in your religion because as you said, it is just faith, but why? That’s really all I was asking and I apologize if that was not clear enough. Personally, I had no problem with your prayer, but my point was to tell you that it offended others here on the site.
Fundies actually do affect a lot because they have been influencing the government that runs this nation AND considering that I live in red Arizona, YES I face religion every day (Especially in my high school biology class where we are currently learning about Evolution and having to fight with all the creationists in the classroom every step of the way! It does affect me and that is why I “waste my time”. I care about my rights and I never want them stripped away from me because of someone else’s own “faith-based” beliefs. I actually do have many Christian friends and contrary to your opinion of me, I do not hate religion (it has left a bad taste though as I mentioned before). The only reason I would have for hating a theist is if they constantly tried to convert me despite constant refusal, tried to enforce their own personal religion into the government, sciences, and education (There are over 80000 religions worldwide…if we let them do it for one religion, to be fair we’d have to do it for all of them! Where is the lawfulness in that?) and if they did something I consider immoral (My morality is humanitarian, plain and simple) so no racism, oppression, etc. for me.
Everything else I am cool with for the most part.
The reason I go here to BoF is because there ARE NO ATHEISTS in my school and probably only five or six in my life. If I was Christian living in an atheist town, would you consider it strange of me to go to a website where I could occasionally talk to others who shared my viewpoints? I don’t mind talking to theists so long as they are willing to open up to actual debating instead of just telling me to shut up. I am flexible in all areas save for science. Religion is as you said “faith” and that doesn’t belong in science…what everyone else believes personally though is their choice and I will never infringe upon their right to that.
And the Duggar’s are just plain sickening. I doubt they will change their lifestyle, HOWEVER they can serve as an example to people as what not do to. I believe that it is unfair that because of their religion, they basically get everything in life for free. Do other families get that? No! Practically half of the world is starving (and plenty of them are probably fairly religious themselves) but do they get a tax-free home or have the means to take care of all their kids? Probably not.
I’d also have to agree with the article mentioned. Why should these people get to take advantage of the products of evolution if they think it is so evil? That is just hypocritical.
One last thing on the Duggar’s: apparently Michelle gives parenting advice to some fundie friends which involves slapping a stick at a toddler so that it stays on the blanket and doesn’t move…that is just friggin child abuse there.
Lastly: Your comment seems to portray a lot of anger, but I don’t see how I have “attacked” you. None of my comments have been hurtful or have been directed at you on a personal level, and yet you are being quite snarky with me here. I have just told you my experience with religion and like I said, it has not been good and it still affects my views today, but I have not judged you because I want to see your entire view beforehand. I do not wish to be a judgmental prick like some theists and atheists because I believe in giving every single person a fair chance.
Anyway, I am sorry if this offends you, I might have been a little harsh here due to a fairly bad incident that occurred about three hours ago with my father. If you feel at all like I am taking something out on you here, then I apologize in advance.
PS: Good luck with your daughters’ recital. The kids I baby-sit for have one in about a week.
May 17th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Sue Blue — The Southern Baptists aren’t quite as good at material help as the Catholics you speak of (no surprise). Catholics may be 100 years behind on birth control, but there are a lot of areas where they are surprisingly modern, sensible, and even do great work. Great points! I wish your daughter-in-law and granddaughter (and you!) well! Healing takes time. I’m now happily remarried with a house full of feathered children (I don’t do human children lol). You made some great points about the Duggars. It’s so easy to get distracted by their “from another century” hairdos and clothing, but that’s not the real problem.
May 17th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
Yea, I got that too. When my relatives did it, I wasn’t so annoyed, knowing that they were saying the “turn to God” stuff more as a way of them empathizing, because I’m sure they’d want to hear that stuff should they be going through what I was. (They don’t know I am a nonbeliever.) What pissed me off more were the letters I would get from churches that were apparently just scouring the obituaries and blasting out letters to try to convince me that I need THEIR church to find my salvation. Freakin’ leaches.
May 17th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
I guess I didn’t use Mr. Winky
enough for Amy to realize that I’m not upset/pissed/etc. Not sure how else to word a real argument/debate that she wouldn’t think she’s worn out her welcome. I’m all for a good debate. Especially when I’m right! 
I enjoy getting people to THINK about their superstitions, even if they don’t change their mind. It’s a free country, after all. Ah, well. What can you do?
May 17th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
It’s impossible to prove a negative. That is a logical fallacy. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof for more information.
Oh, I almost forgot:
May 17th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
I have an ear infection and my ear canal is swollen shut. I tried praying, but, again, it didn’t work. Sigh. Prayer… Guess I need some of those new fangled sciencey antibiotic thingies.
Oh, almost forgot again:
May 17th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Sarah-I had conceded defeat, but I need to reply. I know that I was snippy last night. I was sleepy, cranky, and not at my best. This is not an excuse, but it’s my reason. I was responding to you AND OTHERS on the site. I do sincerely apologize for my attitude, but not my words. I still have the same views. I would like to clear something up…I never said you “hated other religions”. I said you, and others, aren’t willing to speak genuinely to anyone other than those who think like you. This has been my personal experience here on this site. I take your harsh comments about believers personally because I am one. It was pride that made me lash out. Yuck! (Again, I’m sorry) Also, I wandered onto this site accidentally. I did choose to contribute, but I didn’t seek it out.
I feel I have explained the reason I believe in Christ as Savior, but I’m happy to dig a little deeper. Someone shared the message of “salvation through Jesus Christ”, I prayed that God would reveal His truth to me and He did. Since then, I have experienced the power of prayer and He has grown me in my faith. Now, I know this is not a satisfactory answer to someone who wants physical/scientific proof. I don’t have that. (Unless you count the whole world and all it’s glory, something that I believe suggests a creator.) It was not ever my intention to “prove” my beliefs or ask anyone to “prove” theirs. I only asked because others kept asking me. I don’t think there is any evidence that proves that there isn’t a God. You stating your belief in science and scientists doesn’t disprove God. I don’t believe all science to be accurate. It’s all about credibilty. You don’t think the Bible is credible, I don’t think Dawkins/Darwin/etc. is credible. That’s just the way it is. I was sincerely interested and desired to be educated. Though I live in a verrrry BLUE state, I don’t know any athiests, agnostics, etc. I was willing to listen, not because I’m looking to convert, but because I desire knowledge. I decided not to be the Christian who just says, “I’ll pray for you”, as I was criticized. (not by you)
I still say you need to find the strength to shake off what others do to you or say to you. Even in the midst of battle. It will only make you bitter. I’m not saying you should be super human, you will have moments when it hurts and you throw in the towel, (like I did last night) but you need to be able to be OK inside. Whatever hurt you have only affects you. I also want to take this moment to suggest that some of those Christians, if they have indeed been hateful, may not have learned how to debate yet either. Not to over simplify, but they may just be immature. I don’t know any of these people, so I have no foundation for what I just said. It’s just a thought. God calls believers to love and serve others, but we are still fallible. We don’t always do that. I also would like to suggest that not everyone who says they are a Christian are indeed Christians. “Christian” has become a term used very loosely. The definition I agree with is someone who believes in and accepts Jesus Christ as Savior. If people deny Christ, I don’t think they should call themselves “Christ”ians. Again, my opinion.
I know what you mean about governmental issues. I fear the same things, only concerning my right to faith in Jesus, deciding what’s best for my children, etc. I don’t have any answers, but I can relate.
Thank you for wishing us luck at the recital. It was fun. The girls did a wonderful job and I was very proud.
I better sign off. Maybe someday science will prove the existence of God. I surely wish it worked that way.
May 18th, 2008 at 8:49 am
Parrotlover77-If you really want to say something to me, then just say it. It’s really hard to hear you through all your sarcasm. It only makes me not want to listen OR talk to you.
It is a free country, like you said, and you can say whatever you want, do whatever you want (within the law), and believe or not believe in whatever you want. The same goes for the Duggars. It may drive you crazy, but it’s true.
As for them denying science, yet utilizing it’s benefits. I’ve never heard them deny the reality and benefit of medical advances. Personally, I don’t believe in evolution, but I don’t deny the advances in the medical community. That’s what I don’t understand. Why do you, credit all the modern medical advances to Darwin and the theory of evolution? Not sure if this is what you have been saying.
Could you please just explain to me why you think this, if you do?
May 19th, 2008 at 1:57 am
Parrotlover77-Just to clarify…When I said I don’t believe in evolution, I meant specifically “particles-to-people” evolution. I feel that evolution scientists describe natural history in untestable events.
Evolutionists simply state that prokaryotes were the first organisms to inhabit earth 3-4 billion years ago. They state that no obvious changes in morphology or cellular organization occured over the next few billion years. They then say that a bacteria was created (eukaryotes in connection with symbiosis) This bacteria and the host cell then underwent co-evolution, with the bacteria evolving into mitochondria or hydrogenosomes. Then an independent second engulfment of orgamisms led to the formation of chloroplacts in algea and plants. This went on for awhile until about 1 billion years ago, when suddenly, multicellular organisms began to appear in the oceans. (this confuses me, because in my understanding, evolution doesn’t allow for something to spontaneously appear) Then the evolution of multicellularity occured in multiple independent events, in organisms as diverse as sponges, brown algea, cyanobacteria, slime moulds, and myxobacteria. Soon after this, biological diversity appeared over the next 10 million years. Whew!!
I think this highly speculative and untestable, therefore a blanket statement and not proof. There is a lack of certainty, and in all I have read, I have not come across anything that can prove this happened. (not that I have read and studied everything out there) I HAVE read the admission of MANY scientists that there is uncertainty in how life began.
Based on the information I’ve gathered, I believe evolution (”particle-to-people”) is just as much a leap of faith as creationism.
This is an ancient debate-I’m not assuming any of us will come up with THE ANSWER THAT ENDS ALL DEBATE! I’m not sure it’s even wise to keep going with this. In the end, I’m sure we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Until then, I welcome your thoughts (minus the sarcasm) if for no other reason than to be informed so I can be more understanding.
May 19th, 2008 at 6:02 am
Regarding evolution/medical advances…
Sarcasm is a deep part of my personality that I thoroughly enjoy and embrace. But to answer your question in all sincerity, see the following link: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/medicine_01
And some more fun reading about the truth behind evolution: http://www.expelledexposed.com/index.php/the-truth/evolution
May 19th, 2008 at 6:07 am
You are conflating two unrelated issues. evolution and abiogenesis. It is perfectly normal to conflate the two when you do not exactly understand what each is trying to describe. Evolution is a process of achieving diversity in life, whereas abiogenesis is the process by which life begins (and also what, exactly, is the “start” of life or the first life form).
As for not believing the theory because you have no evidence… perhaps you should read a real scientific journal or other scientific source. Wikipedia’s evolution article is actually incredibly well-sourced. Much of what you wrote was “they say this, but offer no proof.” This is simply not the case. There is a mountain of proof, but it is never discussed on creation websites or by creation proponents because it damages the credibility of the misinformation they are spreading.
May 19th, 2008 at 6:09 am
Amy - We have the answer that ends the debate. But faith in ancient stories blinds people to accepting the evidence that proves those stories wrong. Incidently, there are millions of Christians that accept science and believe there is a God. Those that hold onto the genesis creation story simply refuse the believe their own eyes.
May 19th, 2008 at 6:11 am
And my final post to Amy here unless she returns… Her answer on why she believes so strongly in her faith is also a logical fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence .
Now, that’s perfectly fine, in a sense, because faith IS a logical fallacy, or else it wouldn’t be faith — it would be fact. But it’s important to note for the purposes of a debate (which deals with facts) that “I can’t answer why, it just happened” is the above logical fallacy.
May 19th, 2008 at 6:12 am
Amy,
“Evolutionist” is a term coined by fundies/ID proponents to somehow suggest that the beliefs of scientists are on par intelectually with the beliefs of Creationists. ( DUH, I will add -ist to the word and they sound like me!!! ) It is not a term that any scientist who believes in evolutionary theory would refer to themselves by but since most of your knowledge of evolution probably comes from what was written by Creationists, it’s understandable that you would use this term. It reminds me of the term “partial-birth abortion” which was never a recognized medical term ( intact D&X is but doesn’t really roll off the tongue and give a mental image the way PBA does ) but certainly put fear into the minds of uninformed conservatives.
When I first read your latest entry, I was momentarily impressed by your understanding of parts of evolutionary theory, specifically how many scientist believe life began. Then I read the wikipedia entry on evolution and I found the part you mildly reworded.
The difference between evolution theory and creationism is that evolution as a concept is being proven in bits and pieces all of the time. String many of these together and you come up with more and more proof that we do have a common ancestor with primates, that the earth is as old ( or older ) as we suppose it to be and that, yes, genetically we all began as single cell organisms. As more and more of this theory is studied and proven to be fact, it chips away at your belief system and it scares the crap out of you because you have nothing else. You might be forced to admit that we were right all along, that THERE IS NO GOD. THERE IS NO CREATOR, THERE IS NO WHITE BEARDED MAN IN THE SKY.
Lastly, you say you welcome the thoughts of others so that you can be informed so as to be more understanding. I say that’s a load of bullshit. You obviously have a strong belief system, I would not even begin to think that anything that anyone on this forum could say would sway you.
Let’s get back to the Duggars and their odd use/disuse of medical science. They obviously trust the medical profession enough to use it for prenatal care and delivery. I believe the photos I have seen of Michelle giving birth all show her in a hospital. Yet, it’s been stated several places that her doctor warned her after #10 that additional pregnancies would become more and more risky. I suppose if she bled out on the delivery table this would be looked at as “God’s Will” and “Michelle was called to the Lord in Heaven”. So she accepts medical help when she needs it, but turns a blind eye to some pretty serious advice when given it.
As far as the government and your right to believe in God/Jesus, there is no indication that our government would ever take that right away from you. On the other hand, the government should continue to protect its citizens of all faiths and belief systems by making sure that it does not promote any one religion or belief system. Do you see signs of something else?
What has the government done lately to decide what is best for your children? If keeping religion out of schools is what you are referring to, that is in the best interest of everyone’s children. I’m only assuming that is what you mean, though. If it isn’t, please enlighten me.
:)
May 19th, 2008 at 6:16 am
Whoops! One more post here for Amy. “I also would like to suggest that not everyone who says they are a Christian are indeed Christians. “Christian” has become a term used very loosely. The definition I agree with is someone who believes in and accepts Jesus Christ as Savior.”
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
May 19th, 2008 at 10:51 am
I do so wish the gov would require home schoolers to be tested and required to be on par to a certain grade level per age of the child.I admit I haven’t researched it,but with the way the Duggar’s are going about it,I can only come to the conclusion that Ark. requires no standardized testing in order to be allowed to home school them.I agree with another poster that all of the Duggar children are probably several grade levels behind what they would be if they were in public or private school.This is a shame because education is a basic right.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:58 am
Barbara-I used the wickipedia definiton because it was a good summary of the theory of evolution. I have read other sources. I believe they say the same thing. Regardless of the source of my post, I still believe it’s conjecture based on what a group of men say is proof. There may be a majority of scientists who believe it to be fact, however, their belief is based on how THEY define “theory” and “fact”. I hear criticism of the Bible for theses same reasons. (ex. “a group of men got together and wrote the Bible and called it truth”)
I have read about these things, but this is the first time I have talked to anyone who held these things to be truth, factual, and above reproach. I STATED that I did not ask these questions with “openess” to possible conversion. I wanted to hear the thoughts of everyday people, not just scientists. The people who live this belief. All this in an attempt to be more understanding, (emotionally, I guess you would say) of those who don’t believe what I believe. I never implied that I wasn’t firm in my faith or that I was seeking an alternative.
I’m wondering why you would think that I would be scared if my faith in God was proven false. “because I have nothing else” I’ve heard a lot of proclamations that living a “belief in nothing life” is the way to go. If my faith in God is proven false, then I will be free from my oppression. If I continue to believe in God until I die and then nothing happens. Oh well, what harm has been done to me? Life has no meaning or purpose anyway. Life just simply exists and is only what we ourselves make it.
I’m sorry I used the term evolutionist. I didn’t mean it in the way that I think you took it. I am not above reproach and agree that putting “ist” at the end is generalizing.
Everybody keeps saying things like “evolution is a concept being proven all the time, bit by bit” but not giving any examples.
As far as what the government has done lately to decide what is best for my children, nothing. I do homeschool my children and that right is being threatened. I can get behind the rational of taking prayer and religion out of public school. I don’t think public school teachers should be responsible for the spritual teaching of my children. I don’t think that religion should be taught in public school at all. I think it is the responsibility of parents to teach their children such things. I do think that evolution, particle-to-people, should be taught as “what some scientists, even a majority of scientists, believe as fact, but not as an absolute. When children get older, they can research all possibilities and decide for themselves. Personally, since it such a debated issue, I don’t think any of it belongs in public school. Public school should be a place where the basics of education should be taught, (reading, writing, mathematics). Morality and absolutes belong at home between parent or child. Not just Christian morality, but ALL sources of morality as well. When did we decide that it was up to government and school teachers to shape the minds, hearts, souls, lives of our children? If Public schools just taught the basics then I would be happy to send my children.
I do believe in evolution in a sense. Humans evolve from a fetus to adult, but there is no evidenc