Fundies Gone Wild
You should take a moment today and remember why September 11 happened. Religious fundamentalism can be very dangerous.
Most religious violence today is committed by Islamic fundamentalists. Their death toll these days is much greater than the Christian fundamentalists’, so it’s easy to think that the Muslim extremists are more dangerous.
They are not. They’re pikers.
Christian extremists want to start World War III, to hasten the return of their “savior”.
Three thousand dead vs. seven billion dead.
That’s six orders of magnitude.
Muslim extremism is a rounding error compared to Christian extremism.
September 11th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
This clip from Jacob Bronowski about certainty seems relevant here:
http://www.zefrank.com/zesblog/archives/2009/09/the_ascent_of_m.html
I’m link to Ze Frank rather than straight to YouTube because Ze is awesome.
September 11th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
I’ll add that it’s the Christians who’ve spent the past thirty years putting into office the criminals and lunatics most directly responsible for our current economic state of affairs. As capable and well-intended as Obama is, I don’t think there’s anything that can be done at this point. America is too badly broken; it can’t be repaired. We aren’t coming back from this, and, as we collapse, we’ll be taking everyone else down with us. This is probably the end of our global civilization; it may very well be the end of humanity.
The Christians turned out to be far more toxic than the Muslims ever were.
September 11th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
I still smack my forehead because of those who missed the irony of turning to religion after 9/11. Oh, and let’s not forget the morons at the town halls who called themselves “right-wing terrorists” and carried M-16s to events. I’m sure they were pretty furious after 9/11, but I guess its OK when they do it.
I wish I could say with complete certainty that Jeff’s comment is wrong, but I can’t. When so many ignorant believers wish for the end of the world, and we possess the technological capability to do it, we’re riding on a razor’s edge. Suppose some fanatic really does detonate a nuclear weapon in an American city. Will we be able to reason our way through it? Recent history suggests otherwise.
September 12th, 2009 at 5:33 am
Ed Brayton has a post about a high school in Kentucky that employs a football coach who took his players to a church to get baptized while at an away game, but which required students to bring notes from home if their parents wanted them to hear Obama’s speech.
One of Ed’s commenters expressed it very well:
These people cannot be reasoned with. They’re collectively insane, and have constructed a parallel reality that reflects that insanity, complete with its own revisionist science and history. People like Jim Wallis of Sojourners take an accommodationist position; they want to believe that we can all “just get along”. We can’t. The fundies are correct about one thing – this is a war of ideologies, and, at the end, only one side can be left standing.
I know you’re all tired of hearing me say it (and I don’t blame you), but the only way out of this that I can see is to marginalize them and limit their participation in the political process. Barring that, I really think we’re screwed.
September 12th, 2009 at 6:59 am
Jeff Eyges, I must disagree. An increasing number of young people are realizing they are being told lies and that is a very good thing. Notice the people who are at the forefront of the crazy right wing, they are all the dying breed of older white men. I think we are witnessing the death throes of Christian conservatism and it is going to get uglier before it gets better. Here’s an example, do you think this website would even have been tolerated 200 years ago? Imagine it as a pamphlet instead of a website, the publisher would have sentenced to death for heresy. Now you can read and enjoy it and spread it around. It is the obligation of all of us to spread the word. True, the fundies are breeding like rabbits but we can all take comfort in the fact that all those kids will be teenagers eventually. Nearly every teenager thinks their parents are full of crap at some time or other and imagine the shock they’ll get when they actually read a science book. I say cheer up and spread the word of questioning authority!
September 12th, 2009 at 8:21 am
Fundamentalism has displayed a remarkable ability to propagate itself through each successive generation.
September 12th, 2009 at 9:15 am
Brian / Jeff – I’m not going to say some terrible localized event such as a nuclear/biological weapon causing massive death won’t happen. There’s too much craziness. I really hope it won’t and I think our various law enforcement branches are way underrated at their ability to prevent such an attack, but it still may happen.
That said, I strongly disagree with any sort of “end of civilization” or “we’re too far gone” opinion. At the risk of sounding Glenn Beckish, such an event will bring people together. Sure, Bush and his cronies abused the moment as an excuse to do terrible things, but it doesn’t have to be that way!! With something as small as a few votes in Florida and a definitive Gore presidency (with no chance of corruption turning it the other way) the post 9/11 world would have been entirely different. That’s something to think about.
September 12th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Yes, it could have been different – but it wasn’t. And I think it only would have delayed the inevitable, anyway.
I don’t think it’s going to be that way, PL. I think as society collapses, people will become more isolated from one another. Communities that form will be more ideologically driven. Already, we have a Christian subculture that invalidates and dehumanizes everyone who disagrees with it.
September 12th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
“Three thousand [real] dead vs. seven billion [fantasy] dead.”
Unless you want to reach back into history and count. I’m not saying they’re not dangerous at all. But they are mostly talk.
September 12th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Dan:
Ignore Christian extremists at your peril.
It’s not seven billion fantasy dead. It’s seven billion potential dead. We have to keep these people in check, if at all possible. If we let them run completely free, they will start WWIII. It’s not an if but a when.
Most of them wouldn’t personally shoot an abortion doctor, but all it takes is a few. Most of them wouldn’t personally press The Button, but a few of them would. We need to make sure those few don’t get into a position where they can.
We also need to prevent them from building up enough momentum that we find ourselves on a road to WWIII that we can’t jump off of. The inevitability of the Iraq war (mostly not caused by fundies) demonstrates how that can happen.
September 12th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
PL,
I wish I had the same confidence in people as you. How many examples of far-right reactionary stupidity have we seen just this year alone? Fundies will see such an event as a good thing, and will scream at the top of their lungs for massive retribution in the hope of bringing on armageddon. We’re fortunate to have a level-headed president now, but what if something really catastrophic had happened in America while we were still saddled with Bush?
I am also not filled with confidence that these people would rally behind President Obama like the country did for Bush. They’re praying for any excuse to bring him down. These people are dangerous, and if left unchecked they will do anything they can to bring their fantasy of religious annihilation to fruition.
September 13th, 2009 at 4:14 am
They certainly have no problem voting into office people who would.
September 13th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Regarding the three thousand vs seven billion, it is a little apples and oranges. A more accurate comparison would be the seven billion potential dead of a global apocalypse vs. the five billion or so dead or enslaved by a successful Islamic Fundamentalist Jihad.
The point is still valid, though. Fundamentalists are the real problem, not Christianity, Islam, or any particular religion. Of course, it would help if the more rational, moderate members of every religion started vilifying the fundamentalists rather than glorifying them.
September 13th, 2009 at 11:52 am
KennyCelican:
That’s a very good point. It’s one I’ve made myself, but not often enough. All Christians are responsible for reigning in their extremist brethren. We’ve heard many Muslims complain that not all Muslims are terrorists. Well then, what have the moderates done to bring the extremists under control?
September 14th, 2009 at 9:33 am
Brian – I get your point. But I think one thing missing from a lot of the “oh those crazy wingers” discussions is that the the crazy wingers are not, I repeat, NOT a majority! They are vocal, sure, but not a majority. The attendance of the corporate sponsored tea parties has been pathetic. And they get a ton of free press from Fox News, who is their mouth piece.
I guess what I’m saying is that there are a lot of conservatives of varying levels of political apathy that do not want to associate with the Sarah Palin / Glenn Beck types. I feel they would rally behind Obama in such a national crisis.
Republicans in congress (especially those of the Michelle Backman flavor) will not be as accomodating, but that’s because the representatives of the Republican party right now are batshit insane. They have gone on such a long ride on the crazy wagon that the average “centrist” conservative has no idea who they are voting for.
Now my generally positive outlook on this issue should not be confused with a rainbow and kisses outlook on what this vocal minority can do, especially with their political power. They are America’s Taliban. They will not be happy until we are under a fundamentalist Christian theocratic dictatorship. And as such we must do what we can to fight them. This is especially important since the press treats them as if they are sane.
September 15th, 2009 at 6:01 am
I say this a lot, myself. I wish liberal mainline Christians would be more vocal and more proactive. As far as progressive evangelicals are concerned, I get annoyed with people like Jim Wallis and Brian McLaren, because they want to take a Rodney King approach – “Can’t we all just get along?” And, of course, the answer is – “No, we can’t.” They want to bring the fundamentalists to the table, which is futile, as fundies don’t understand dialogue, they only understand monologue. To a fundie, dialogue means, “I’ll pretend to listen until it’s my turn to tell them why I’m right and they’re wrong.”
Unfortunately, when push comes to shove, I think these “liberal” evangelicals will side with their coreligionists, because they are their “brothers and sisters in Christ” – something we can never be.
September 15th, 2009 at 6:26 am
Word.
I think it depends on the issue. Prayer in the classroom? Probably would side with them. Violence at abortion clinics? Negatory, highly doubtful.
September 15th, 2009 at 8:17 am
Not on individual issues, but, ultimately, if they’re forced to choose sides – wait and see.
September 15th, 2009 at 8:55 am
Beck/Palin in 2012! Woo!
Sorry. I’ve had a fever, and it’s starting to have a detrimental effect on my perception of reality. Aw, heck, here we go again…
Beck/Palin in 2012! Woo!
September 16th, 2009 at 6:33 am
Jeff – Choose sides on what? Something like 95% of the Democratic Party (spitball statistic) is progressive christian. These people believe in an allegorical (rather than literal) bible.
I can’t see these people siding with the crazy fundies on key issues just because they call themselves christian. “They’re not real Christians” is the common refrain.
I just don’t see how they’d choose Hurricane Katrina Is The Gheys Fault over Evolution Is The Real.
September 16th, 2009 at 6:38 am
Not mainline Christians. Progressive evangelicals, like Jim Wallis.
September 16th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
A few months ago I saw a slogan that I really liked:
“Science flies people to the moon,
Religion flies people into buildings”
Can’t remember where I saw it, but I want it on a T-shirt. I’d like to see it on billboards everywhere. Notice how it says “religion”, not “Islam”. The fact that there’s an elephant (religion) in the room is the real problem, not what color the elephant is.
September 17th, 2009 at 5:18 am
This is, unfortunately, not an entirely new problem. A while back I read Barbara Tuchman’s Bible and Sword; a little dated but excellent reading. Even Lord Balfour had been swayed by the emerging fundamentalist movement to support a state of Israel so that he could help hasten the second coming. I’ve addressed this apocalyptic hunger on my blog, and maybe that is the best way to make a difference. Even fundie kids will grow up online and they will have to make up their own minds!
September 17th, 2009 at 7:33 am
It is very hard to look over religion’s history and not be disgusted at all that has been done in its name. How do the truly peaceful devout live with themselves, knowing they are enabling their fundie brethen, if by no other means than adding legitimacy to their beliefs? I guess through careful prayer, you can shed the guilt.